Upgrades

[WhyteDragon]

While I do think changing the upgrades to more of a tech tree structure might not be a bad idea, I don't think that was scrypso's point. If I'm understanding him correctly, the big problem is not that you can technically get stuff in any order, just that the individual upgrades don't have as much of an impact and that balancing resources between the different upgrades is not a hard decision.

I understand that. That is precisely why I said I don't think it's the issue, but I do think it needs to be acknowledged if you have plans to make upgrades have a larger impact rather than boost the efficiency of existing mechanics. That was all I meant to address at that time, because one thing scryso did mention was his dislike of the linearity of things. I still feel that unless you create some form of actual investment, players will simply continue with a linear upgrade path.

"Balancing resources between the different upgrades isn't a hard decision." Adding more research and technology alone won't address that issue.

[WhyteDragon]

Firstly, I beg your pardon for double posting. However I wanted to type more stuff.

Secondly, keeping in my scryso's word that the current upgrades are 'boring' since they lack real substance I went ahead and considered a few things. I was going to write a long boring paragraph about a variety of my opinions on things, the interaction of efficiency upgrades with the game, but you know what? Fuck that. Here's some ability ideas for small ships.

Miner Upgrades
Momentum Canceller (30b, 30r) - Whenever a miner uses it's mining laser, it reduces the velocity of it's target. This applies to all entities, but never lowers throttle. Has lower impact the larger the mass of the object.
Asteroid Ping (20y, 50b, 10g) - Miners pings asteroids within two and a half times the length of a miner's field of a view.

Wraith Upgrades
Reinforced Barrel (20b, 40r) - Increases the speed of a wraith's projectiles by 20%.
Backwards Thruster (40b, 20r, 10g) - Allows a wraith to thrust backwards with the S key, much like how it would thrust left or right. (I know, I already suggested this in a different format. Other people have also suggested it too.)
Electromagnetic Superconductor (30y, 30b) - A wraith's EMP decreases throttle by 100% rather than 40%.

Corvette Upgrades
Booster (50b, 50r, 10g) - Allow's a Corvette to temporarily push it's engines and gain one and a half times speed for two seconds. During which time, the Corvette's throttle will drop to 0.
Kinetic Barrage (30y, 30b, 80r, Requires Kinetics Level 1) - Allows a Corvette to switch between Plasma and Kinetic shots. Kinetics deal 30/4 hull/shield damage. Kinetic Barrage does not benefit from Upgrade Photon Barrage, or Photon Condenser.

Minelayer Upgrades
Storage Compartment (80y, 40b) - Increases the number of inventory spaces for a Minelayer to 10.
Ejection Ramp (80y, 40r) - The Minelayer fires mines forward instead of dropping them. Until the mine comes to a complete stop, it is treated as a projectile and will not begin to chase any entities.

Also, RedRocket posted a bunch of small ship upgrade ideas a while back at http://cruisercommand.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=518. May come in use.

[scrypso]

Yes, something like this would make for more interesting upgrades, and more choice. Focus on SS or eco at the start? Splitting miner energy/hull upgrades from the other SS would do something similar. I'm not sure things like this would solve the problems, but I hope that they would lesser them.

Also, bringing back old upgrades and system that currenlt lies unused; kinetics, minelayers, missiles.

Making sure everything is worthwhile, and preferably always useful (i.e. no "only useful if enemy focus everything on missiles") but rather "always useful, but more useful if X". So that diffrent matches see diffrent paths chosen; many wraithpilots, early losing a miner. This would be easier if the enemy could be scouted so you could know ahead of time that they are focusing on destroyers or somesuch. Maybe revealing more info when boarding?

[WhyteDragon]

There are some basic methods of scouting (Wraith Ping indicates the number of Miners, BC Ping when paired with this indicates the number of Combat Ships, and so on.) that can be currently used, and there is always the option to scout with a high speed ship. In fact, I have seen teams saved by an infiltrator picking up on a battlecruiser rush. I don't necessarily think expanding upon it is a bad idea, I do like the idea of allowing infiltrators to also steal 'information' from an enemy battlecruiser, but I think that saying that 'if the enemy could be scouted' may be a bit harsh.

Also, on the note scrypso just made, a thought came to mind. Wouldn't it also be possible to split hull upgrades, small ship speed, and energy upgrades into 'general' and 'ship specific?' I.E.

General Small Ship Hull grants all small ships +25 hull. (8/8)
Corvette Hull grants +35 hull to Corvettes (8/8)
Chomper Hull grants +100 hull to Chompers (6/6)

... and so on.

Not sure if this is a path that you would want to take, but it was an idea. I see it as a way of focusing more deeply upon particular small ships and strategies rather than 'okay, all ships move faster now' or 'all ships have better survivability.' It becomes a deeper investment in particular strategies which utilize particular ships rather than 'a general small ship advantage in general.'

[DumbMarine]

I like those upgrades, Whyte, but I think they leave behind your original point. They don't really affect the flow of strategy. Make the miner's job a bit easier, sure, give the wraith a bit more oomph, okay, but there's not a lot of strategy you can build on top of those upgrades. There's still a linear game path that they will fall into.

I don't think that's a problem that can be solved by tweaking the research tree alone.

[WhyteDragon]

While I understand it may not constitute strategy, seeing as strategy is designed because of the metagame, I would not call the abilities suggested linear. I would even insist that they make a large difference in how you utilize the ships and how you can use them to interact with other. By opening up more 'things' a ship can do you in turn affect how it will be played, what you can use it for effectively, how it work when paired with another craft, how it will be able to react under certain situations...

If you want to change the strategy of the game, you would need to do something like 'remove Kermiculite spawning' or 'make a black hole event.' Objectives already exist - Economy, Small Ship Control, Battlecruiser Supremacy, you can pull these down into smaller that become closer to tactics; BC/Chomper Roaming, AI Miner Spam, Kermiculite Speed Chomping, Economy Denial, Battlecruiser Harassment, Ping Confusion, Hit and Runs, Missile Bombardment, Infiltration Harassment...

I don't feel like 'strategies' are the issue, DM. Even if upgrades are linear, Cruiser Command has strategy. If anything, I would say it's closer to the idea that 'Purchased Upgrades Don't Reflect Strategy.' Instead, as scrypso said, they're simply 'bonuses.' When you see what a BC is firing before Kerm, with what power, you don't know their intent -- they're simply 'stronger,' seeing as everybody will be getting them as soon as possible. If you get, say, Booster as an example on the Corvette, you recognize that the team is trying to allow Corvettes to more easily hunt other crafts by granting it an ability that quickly closes distance. They may even be trying to allow Corvettes to do hit and runs on the battlecruiser -- in turn, the team may recognize that they want to keep high shields and watch carefully for approaching pings even if the enemy battlecruiser has not moved.

So the objective, as I understand it, would technically be 'To Make Upgrades that Reflect a Strategy.' In one sense, that already exists -- there are small bonuses to ships that can be purchased at will. However, at the same time, your battlecruiser is your 'base.' It's the one thing 'you must defend.' Simultaneously, it is also 'your most powerful unit.' Hence it almost always has 'the priority for upgrades.' Because upgrades only reflect efficiency, you can still buy a wraith and expect it to do it's job to some extent. Current upgrades mostly 'improve current mechanics.' Before you say anything, yes -- I understand not all of these exactly 'change how you play the ship.' However, I think the general idea is there: give them more capabilities, and inevitably tactics will come on their own, and those small tactics will begin to lead up to an overall strategy. I think this also applies to the battlecruiser, but at the same time that is a huge issue on how you go about altering upgrades there.

"Secure economy by having Miners stick together with a Corvette. Get Momentum Canceller so the miners can focus on a single entity and nullify all movement so the Corvette can easily move in for the kill. At the cost of one player on the Corvette, this opens up the possibility to more easily attack with wraiths, allowing us to put pressure on their economy as well."

Or maybe you decide you want to rush a Minelayer.

"We will systematically deny the enemy team's miners their asteroid fields by sending out a Minelayer. Once we have Ejection Ramp, the Minelayer will alternate between fields and drop mines near them. If there are defensive crafts there that would normally not let me approach, I.E. a Corvette, I can simply launch my mines towards the field in order to avoid a direct confrontation. In such a way I can carpet the Asteroid Fields miners are already at without putting myself at too much risk despite their presence. This will either force them to detonate the mines or spend time navigating the field to circle around. At such a time that they begin to detonate the mines, I can swoop in for the kill utilizing mines offensively as a projectile."

Or even something as simple as:

"We are expecting a lot of wraith combat, and our wraiths may not be as good. I should probably get them the ability to flee while protecting themselves by teching Backwards Thrusters."

Yes, I understand nothing goes that easily. However, expanding upon the capabilities of a unit still will open up new opportunities for the craft rather than it retaining a static use throughout the game except with superior efficiency and a higher success rate.

[Red-Rocket]

Firstly, I beg your pardon for double posting. However I wanted to type more stuff.

Secondly, keeping in my scryso's word that the current upgrades are 'boring' since they lack real substance I went ahead and considered a few things. I was going to write a long boring paragraph about a variety of my opinions on things, the interaction of efficiency upgrades with the game, but you know what? Fuck that. Here's some ability ideas for small ships.

Miner Upgrades
Momentum Canceller (30b, 30r) - Whenever a miner uses it's mining laser, it reduces the velocity of it's target. This applies to all entities, but never lowers throttle. Has lower impact the larger the mass of the object.
Asteroid Ping (20y, 50b, 10g) - Miners pings asteroids within two and a half times the length of a miner's field of a view.

Wraith Upgrades
Reinforced Barrel (20b, 40r) - Increases the speed of a wraith's projectiles by 20%.
Backwards Thruster (40b, 20r, 10g) - Allows a wraith to thrust backwards with the S key, much like how it would thrust left or right. (I know, I already suggested this in a different format. Other people have also suggested it too.)
Electromagnetic Superconductor (30y, 30b) - A wraith's EMP decreases throttle by 100% rather than 40%.

Corvette Upgrades
Booster (50b, 50r, 10g) - Allow's a Corvette to temporarily push it's engines and gain one and a half times speed for two seconds. During which time, the Corvette's throttle will drop to 0.
Kinetic Barrage (30y, 30b, 80r, Requires Kinetics Level 1) - Allows a Corvette to switch between Plasma and Kinetic shots. Kinetics deal 30/4 hull/shield damage. Kinetic Barrage does not benefit from Upgrade Photon Barrage, or Photon Condenser.

Minelayer Upgrades
Storage Compartment (80y, 40b) - Increases the number of inventory spaces for a Minelayer to 10.
Ejection Ramp (80y, 40r) - The Minelayer fires mines forward instead of dropping them. Until the mine comes to a complete stop, it is treated as a projectile and will not begin to chase any entities.

Also, RedRocket posted a bunch of small ship upgrade ideas a while back at http://cruisercommand.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=518. May come in use.

I agree with all upgrades, although kinetic Barrage raises a question, will the kinetics fire like photon barrage with a spread or will it fire a very small condensed cone? are these upgradeable? and can they home in?

[DumbMarine]

I dig these upgrades, but here's why I don't see them as strategy-changing.

"Secure economy by having Miners stick together with a Corvette.

This is already a strategy. Momentum Canceller just makes miners a bit more effective in those fights, but without it they still have their miner laser and turbo boost. That's what I mean by 'adds oomph, doesn't add flow'. I've got a fair share of corvette+Miners vs corvette+miners fights battling over kerm in my replay folder. When good players are on it they're really epic fights.

"We will systematically deny the enemy team's miners their asteroid fields by sending out a Minelayer.

This is a crazy old strategy. You can already 'dive bomb' miners by dropping mines next to them (minelayers outrun corvettes no problem). Being able to launch them with Ejection Ramp would be nice, but it's not like causing miner havoc without this upgrade is difficult.

If you want to change the strategy of the game, you would need to do something like 'remove Kermiculite spawning' or 'make a black hole event.'

How about these upgrades:

Wraith Upgrade
Kinetic Bomb (60b, 120r, 10g) - Equips each wraith with a single kinetic bomb. The bomb flies in the direction the wraith is moving at half of the wraith's speed. On impact, it does it's speed * 25 damage (so if it's going 40 m/s it does 1k damage). The projectile lasts for 10 seconds. The wraith reloads when it docks with the battlecruiser.

Corvette Upgrade
Extend Shield (10y, 45b, 25g) - Gives any friendly ship the reflective shield bonus for 8 seconds (can be used on the battlecruiser). Linked cooldown with the corvette's reflective shield ability. Costs 500 energy.

Destroyer Upgrade
Chroniton Hullweave - (30y, 30b, 20g) - When the destroyer hits an enemy ship with chroniton torpedoes, that ship cannot damage the destroyer with either weapons or abilities for 10 seconds (they bounce off the hull instead).

The wraith one gives some new options early-game, and keeps the wraith relevant mid-game. Also, skillshot!

The corvette one, aside from being abused in wraith + corvette fights, allows for certain high risk strategies that involve fighting with the BC without broadsides to be used with much more safety.

The destroyer one, okay it doesn't add strategy so much as allow the destroyer to straight up fight the enemy BC without needing to do risky hit and run attacks. That one's for me.

[WhyteDragon]

If you want to go saying it like that, I don't see how yours are any different.

Kinetic Bomb (60b, 120r, 10g) - Equips each wraith with a single kinetic bomb. The bomb flies in the direction the wraith is moving at half of the wraith's speed. On impact, it does it's speed * 25 damage (so if it's going 40 m/s it does 1k damage). The projectile lasts for 10 seconds. The wraith reloads when it docks with the battlecruiser.

It's just 'extra damage.' It makes the wraith do it's job, just more effectively. Skill shot? Everything in the game is already a skill shot, just with varying degrees of difficulty due to projectile speed. You could even define broadsides as the simplest of all skill shots.

Corvette Upgrade
Extend Shield (10y, 45b, 25g) - Gives any friendly ship the reflective shield bonus for 8 seconds (can be used on the battlecruiser). Linked cooldown with the corvette's reflective shield ability. Costs 500 energy.

Normally the Corvette would move in front of the object, such as the battlecruiser, and use shield in order to protect them from part of the bombardment. This just makes it easier to do, albeit more expensive, by allowing you to 'target' a ship instead.

Destroyer Upgrade
Chroniton Hullweave - (30y, 30b, 20g) - When the destroyer hits an enemy ship with chroniton torpedoes, that ship cannot damage the destroyer with either weapons or abilities for 10 seconds (they bounce off the hull instead).

This doesn't really change how you pilot the destroyer. You should already be trying to hit them, and lets be honest -- if you hit them, they're usually dead, and even if they aren't they won't be gearing for a second round. The only place it changes how you pilot it is against the battlecruiser, as it makes it pretty much impossible to kill unless you launch small ships due to the looping invulnerability cycle. However, I would still be exceedingly tentative about doing a bombing run as a BC can opt to dodge with boost, hit I, and then swoop in to kill you dead in those ten seconds. So, basically, the destroyer still has to be defensive -- it just makes it harder for the battlecruiser to kill it.

----

Here's the issue I see. You're not distinguishing 'a ship's goal' with 'how you play a ship.' Unless you create upgrades which outright change the goal of the ship, I.E. giving a mining laser to the wraith, you won't fix that. Even if you do, doesn't it seem a bit off to change the purpose of a ship mid game?

Let me draw a direct comparison to Starcraft 2.

The Zergling is a very cheap unit with low health and high speed. It excels at swarming an enemy group very quickly. Guess what the Zergling's two main upgrades are? Faster movement speed and faster attack rate.

The Maurader is a ranged unit that is effective against armored units at a distance. It is quite good at stutter stepping during the early game due to it's superior range. The Maurader's upgrades are Stim Packs, which let it move faster to kite better, and Concussion Shells, which slow units it hits.

Stalkers are good at striking while on the run due to their superior movement speed. Like most protoss they have a shield mechanic which often often means rotating them out of combat is a very good idea. Their upgrade is a blink ability.

You could easily say all of these abilities just make the unit better at doing what they do. Why shouldn't they? If they were designed for a particular purpose, why shouldn't you build upon that purpose? Just because you're building upon the purpose of a ship, doesn't mean you're 'only increasing it's efficiency.' You can change the way you utilize a unit without changing 'what it does.' You're just offering it 'new ways to do it.' Zergling's extra movement speed allows the units to quickly sneak in to attack expansions before a player can react. It also allows them to scout more easily as you can move them about the map far more freely. Maurader's slow allows them to easily kite melee units, and also allows it to be quite effective while supporting a group against tankier units. When paired with stim packs, this becomes even more effective and allows them to toss out more DPS in exchange for a bit of life in advance. It also opens up strong reason to pair it up with Medvacs since there's a guaranteed 10 health loss per usage. Stalker's blink allows it to approach an enemy base for harass far more effectively, and allows a player to pull them back far more quickly in the midst of combat. It's all just 'extra oomph' at their particular job. It lets them do what they were designed to do a bit better.

I just don't get your angle. I don't understand how you can make the distinction between both our posts.

Also, that does not change the 'strategy' of the game -- those alter smaller tactics you would utilize. Strategy is an intended method to achieve an overall goal, while a tactic refers to individual actions. I.E. Comparing 'Build Economy' to 'Roaming Chomper.'

[DumbMarine]

It's all just 'extra oomph' at their particular job. It lets them do what they were designed to do a bit better.

You've got the entire purpose of SC upgrades completely backwards. Their purpose isn't to give units oomph at all. It's to give opponents a counter window.

Look at the colossus upgrade. You would never get colossus and not get the range upgrade, because unupgraded colossus are terrible. Why is this upgrade in the game, why not give it to colossus so they can be worth buying straight up? It gives opponents an opportunity to either prepare for the upcoming colossus onslaught or it gives them a window in which to pre-emptively strike. Same with storm (storm timing is a very critical window in TvP, games are decided by it). Same with yamato, blink, baneling speed, banshee cloak, ghost cloak, stim... the fact that these upgrades exist by themselves adds nothing to SC2 (which is why they were abstracted out in the campaign). The value-add is when the opponent have the opportunity to react to them.

I just don't get your angle. I don't understand how you can make the distinction between both our posts.

None of your upgrades add counter-play. Your opponent can't respond to them. Thinking about it, maybe kinetic barrage is the exception. Again, though, I still like the upgrades and would like to see them added.

It's just 'extra damage.' It makes the wraith do it's job, just more effectively. Skill shot? Everything in the game is already a skill shot, just with varying degrees of difficulty due to projectile speed. You could even define broadsides as the simplest of all skill shots.

It's giving the wraith a yamato blast. You give me this and I'll make all currently existing strategies look stupid. I'm pretty sure you could easily too.

Normally the Corvette would move in front of the object, such as the battlecruiser, and use shield in order to protect them from part of the bombardment. This just makes it easier to do, albeit more expensive, by allowing you to 'target' a ship instead.

Yeah, fair enough.

This doesn't really change how you pilot the destroyer. You should already be trying to hit them, and lets be honest -- if you hit them, they're usually dead, and even if they aren't they won't be gearing for a second round. The only place it changes how you pilot it is against the battlecruiser, as it makes it pretty much impossible to kill unless you launch small ships due to the looping invulnerability cycle. However, I would still be exceedingly tentative about doing a bombing run as a BC can opt to dodge with boost, hit I, and then swoop in to kill you dead in those ten seconds. So, basically, the destroyer still has to be defensive -- it just makes it harder for the battlecruiser to kill it.

It would be much less risky with the new counter-missiles, but I suppose this doesn't affect destroyer strategy.