Cruiser Command

Its a weapon for the weapons console, like kinetics and lasers (It would be fun to have more weapons to choose from)

so these numbers are just for example, to show an idea but...

each shot does 10/10 "hull and shields? sounds like lasers" Actually thats 10 shields and 10 energy drain ^^ (10s/10e)

I will also rip off whyte-dragons idea and implement it here where you can adjust the amount of shield damage and energy drainm, though i wouldnt mind simplifying it to just 3 settings with 20s/0e - 10s/10e and 0s/20e but we could add something to make it more variable.

This is a suggestion. Moved it accordingly.

Oh jolly...a much better implementation of whytedragon's idea =P seriously, thats a cool way to do a non-hull damaging weapon, by combining shield/energy damage in an interesting way by varying the energy and shield drain. It can be useful against S-ships because you disable them with an energy drain (though wouldnt it just be better to kill them? lol)

There are some interesting concepts by adding in direct energy damage as a weapon type.

The 20/0, 10/10, 0/20 split adds a bit more to think about since it also requires adaptation to shield levels -- high shield damage when shields are low, and high energy damage when shields are high.

However, Dreadnought, I see you completely failed to actually look it over and consider the results of it.

You will use shield/energy damage against shields. There is zero question about this. There is literally no viable reason to use hull/shield damage, since you're not getting optimal output due since shield/hull damage will be split. This means it becomes a brainless interaction.

And if you want to apply the argument of having energy damage bleedthrough in the same was as hull, it still becomes a no-brainer simply because shield damage is another form of energy damage. So, in the end, 'shield/energy damage is technically stacking' since they both serve the purpose of draining an enemy battlecruiser of all of their energy.

Again -- I don't think the energy damage concept is a bad idea.

But the suggested implementation doesn't really make the weapons console more interesting as it has been suggested. "You will always use shield/energy damage against shields. And when energy runs out you will use normal weapons." That's the inevitable interaction it will create, as I understand. And I don't really see how that's more fun or interesting.

And against small ships it ultimately becomes an inferior option -- yes, you would just shoot them with hull most likely.

I like the idea of an energy weapon -- I feel like you've made an interesting suggestion. However, I feel like if you want to create an energy weapon, you need a few more stipulations or conditions to work around to make it interesting.

Alright, so I dont understand many of whyte-dragons arguments as they make references to complex game-mechanics and a conversation with Dreadnought, but it seems as though the 3 settings should not be implemented, and the ION Cannon will just have 1 mode, like kinetics.

Now that out of the way lets move on to how the ION Cannon will be implemented. Kinetics seem like a rush orientated weapon that doesn't require much energy to fire, no tier upgrades, and is good at crippling a ship by spawning debris so they cant fight back.

So lets make the ION Cannon the late game counterpart that is shields, (Hence the 10s/10e damage) maybe lets tier 3 lock it. (as in require tier 3 in order to get the weapon)

Next up on the agenda is that kinetics and lasers are quite heavy, so alternatively the ION Cannon would be more and
So the first cost I would like to set down though very much subject to change is to buy the weapon will be 150 150 75 25 . oh and 10 second upgrade time...

now for the controversial part....damage and capabilities. I will start off with that this is a tier 3 weapon, and will be designed to finish games by keeping shields down, and doing long term damage in the form of energy. Since this is a tier 3 locked weapon, we will have to assume it can keep up with laser damage up front (level 5 lasers: 240 damage for a penta burst) So I will set it to 240s/120e. Now you might say that its doing 360 damage to shields because energy damage is a form of long-term shield damage (since shields rely more on regeneration then actual shield points. 1000-2500 is very easy to get through, if there is no regeneration, so it ends up that the energy is what really gets your shields a formidable defensive edge.) The problem/good thing is that it is long term damage, not upfront, so your still not getting through those shields, and the enemy battlecruiser will most likely have a full capacitor, it will take a while to get through 100,000 energy. (If we considered energy damage as a form of shield damage, then saber missiles do 1400 damage, yet they aren't considered overpowered anyway). And in the end, it is supposed to drain the enemy Battlecruiser of energy, and to kill them. It does seem like a game-ending weapon and I mostly agree, because you are spending a lot of money to get it AND it is locked behind tier 3...
Oh ya, its a game ending weapon, each shot should cost 1200 energy (penta is 800), not something you want to mindlessly spam.

Now for Upgrades...now straight up increases in damage is boring (lasers)...Kinetics does it in a cool way, where one path doesnt even increase damage, but the amount of projectiles it fires, and the other one screws with shield mechanics by simply ignoring shields when they become "overwhelmed" (30%). One thing that comes to mind, an upgrade that fires 2 ION Cannons at once, instead of the normal 1. (Their points of firing would be on the wings, like lasers, where as the single point would be where kinetics fire in the middle of the battlecruiser). Oh ya, thats a double-damage increase....better set some requirements 1) It costs 100 100 50 40 and 2) it requires 6/6 core upgrades which indirectly costs the second ION-Cannon (That core has to support 2 ION Cannons) which is 525 240 105 if my math is right.

Now for the prettiness and affects part....Now the weapon itself...im thinking of a kind of beam weapon where it trails along, and stacks up....that's kind of confusing, let me give you an example...here we have a star ship firing laser beams, watch closely at 0:16-0:18 at how they look https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhmwFt2MDv4 its how they stream out, its not like the old star-trek series where its instant (or even modern physics with the speed of light level lasers (though i do recall a squirrel named Hammy beating it, and was able to see the lasers start from one point and stream out to the end point)) another and probably better example is star trek online, where when you fire 1 laser, visually it shows 3-6 laser beams quickly streaming out and hitting enemy ships. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rf0ZPW7-ZWo and it just sorta holds for a moment, before disappearing.
Though i will say make the rate that the speed that the laser travels rather slow for gameplay reasons, it could be dodgeable especially for Hangar Ships.

Oh ya and it will look like a light blue beam! (though im open to white, purple, dark-blue and black (Black just because I just want to see what it would look like))

In short. Cost - 150 150 75 25 . Short range, normal fire-rate, slow speed, beam like weapon. Does 240/120 Shield/Energy Damage.
Upgrade - Second Ion Cannon, requires 6 core upgrades and costs 100 100 50 40
And i have decided to remove Whyte-Dragons idea for ION Cannon (mostly because I still didn't comprehend quite a few parts to it when I read it a fifth time )

Whew...I didn't mean to make that post that big, but its a full on weapon, and someone had to set down hard-numbers on what exactly the ION Cannon can do. I would greatly appreciate discussion and feed-back since i have less game-experience then others

DinoChicken wrote:Alright, so I dont understand many of whyte-dragons arguments as they make references to complex game-mechanics and a conversation with Dreadnought, but it seems as though the 3 settings should not be implemented, and the ION Cannon will just have 1 mode, like kinetics.

If I was to put a very short and simple reason, it would be because of 'identity.' You're basically putting two very similar weapons with only one or two distinguishing traits and trying to make them vie against eachother as very different. This is difficult to implement correctly in my opinion.

I honestly think it would be a smarter approach to make a weapon distinctly different from the already existing laser weapon, such that it can stand on its own as something nice and interesting rather than being forced to compete for space alongside its brother.

Basically, I think Energy/Shield damage will simply become the new 'go to weapon' in BC battles, and that the regular BC lasers will just suffer from little to no use. Alternatively, it will suffer from the same issues Kinetics deals with in that it costs too much to be worth taking since there aren't enough distinguishing traits and nobody will bother with it. This is sort of a fate of concepts that are too similar -- just look at Single/Triple/Penta burst. Only one really gets used at the end of the day, even with a few extra distinguishing traits.

That's the basis and simplified version of the concerns, without any of the theorycrafting.

I would suggest making it very different as well, like not just right-click to shoot, but something that requires proper aiming and charging up (make it dodge-able even via engine boost)

WhyteDragon wrote:If I was to put a very short and simple reason, it would be because of 'identity.' You're basically putting two very similar weapons with only one or two distinguishing traits and trying to make them vie against eachother as very different. This is difficult to implement correctly in my opinion.

I honestly think it would be a smarter approach to make a weapon distinctly different from the already existing laser weapon, such that it can stand on its own as something nice and interesting rather than being forced to compete for space alongside its brother.

Basically, I think Energy/Shield damage will simply become the new 'go to weapon' in BC battles, and that the regular BC lasers will just suffer from little to no use. Alternatively, it will suffer from the same issues Kinetics deals with in that it costs too much to be worth taking since there aren't enough distinguishing traits and nobody will bother with it. This is sort of a fate of concepts that are too similar -- just look at Single/Triple/Penta burst. Only one really gets used at the end of the day, even with a few extra distinguishing traits.

That's the basis and simplified version of the concerns, without any of the theorycrafting.

Yes, That is a difficult problem to overcome. The problem is that it DOES have to compete with lasers as a viable weapon because like kinetics, you have to use one or the other, you cant fire both at the same time.
With Kinetics V Lasers the advantages are as noted: (though might have more)
- Requires no tier upgrades to max - energy efficient (400, as opposed to penta 800) - Causes a lot of debris - 2 distinct Tech paths. Causes more hull debris.
In the end the Kinetics simply can not compete anymore because the triple burst lasers do more hull damage with enough laser upgrades and only costs 300 energy to fire (not to mention the 4 first shots simply fire faster)

While the ION Cannon only is different from the lasers in 1 front, energy damage (And to lesser extents, speed, energy cost, resource cost..ect...) at the moment...
I do also want to put out that the ION Cannon should be better then the lasers at fighting battlecruisers late game in short range combat, it does not necessarily mean it will completely replace the laser, you would still want to use the lasers if the opponents have no shield regeneration, long range combat, and dealing with Hangar ships, which are 3 distinct advantages over the ION Cannon.
So when I mean that the ION Cannon should be better then lasers against battlecruisers, it will be in the context that the enemy has large amounts of shield regeneration and is at close range, though you would want to switch to lasers if you catch any destroyer or subjugator out of position (or other ships).

So now it is time to go in to differentiating mechanics for the ION Cannon.
I was asking around on Skype and an interesting idea (the only idea, but I can't come up with anything better) from Dreadnought was a mechanic called charges, now ill try and summarize what he was talking about. (It is also quite easy to change numbers around to get an entirely new result)

Essentially when you fire the ION Cannon, it looses a charge, and charges take a short while to refill. I have 5 charges, and I fire 5 times with in 2 seconds, or however fast we want the fire-rate to be, and it takes 5 seconds to add a new charge.

In this way it would make the ION Cannon a bit more of a burst style weapon, and you can switch to different weapons while the charges are filling up.

I hope to hear more interesting ideas since it seems people do like the shield/energy damage component So it is worth exploring more into detail.

I'm just going to repeat this fast to get the point across--

DinoChicken wrote:Keep in mind that I would like the ION Cannon should probably replace the lasers as a late game weapon vs battlecruisers, since it deals primarily shield damage and energy damage.

If this is what you're seeking, I am completely against the implementation of the Ion Cannon. You should not be creating a replacement.

DinoChicken wrote:In the end the Kinetics simply can not compete anymore because the triple burst lasers do more hull damage with enough laser upgrades and only costs 300 energy to fire (not to mention the 4 first shots simply fire faster)

I entirely disagree. Kinetics cannot compete due to cost issues when a much more reliable and universally used alternative is more present.

DinoChicken wrote:While the ION Cannon only is different from the lasers in 1 front, energy damage (And to lesser extents, speed, energy cost, resource cost..ect...) at the moment...
I do also want to put out that the ION Cannon should be better then the lasers at fighting battlecruisers late game in short range combat, it does not necessarily mean it will completely replace the laser, you would still want to use the lasers if the opponents have no shield regeneration, long range combat, and dealing with Hangar ships, which are 3 distinct advantages over the ION Cannon.
So when I mean that the ION Cannon should be better then lasers against battlecruisers, it will be in the context that the enemy has large amounts of shield regeneration and is at close range, though you would want to switch to lasers if you catch any destroyer or subjugator out of position (or other ships).

There's one thing I want to point out fast among all of this--
You would still want to use the lasers if the opponents have no shield regeneration.

In essence, this already means the battle is already over, as it essentially means the enemy team has almost certainly completely run out of energy, which is a ticket straight to hell.

So it does essentially just become 'spam this one weapon as much as possible.'

DinoChicken wrote:So now it is time to go in to differentiating mechanics for the ION Cannon.
I was asking around on Skype and an interesting idea (the only idea, but I can't come up with anything better) from Dreadnought was a mechanic called charges, now ill try and summarize what he was talking about. (It is also quite easy to change numbers around to get an entirely new result)

Essentially when you fire the ION Cannon, it looses a charge, and charges take a short while to refill. I have 5 charges, and I fire 5 times with in 2 seconds, or however fast we want the fire-rate to be, and it takes 5 seconds to add a new charge.

In this way it would make the ION Cannon a bit more of a burst style weapon, and you can switch to different weapons while the charges are filling up.

I hope to hear more interesting ideas since it seems people do like the shield/energy damage component So it is worth exploring more into detail.

As I said in Skype, I don't think this is a bad step. It helps create a certain distinction between the weapon types, and creates a window of use which helps make sure it doesn't 'overlap' all easily. However, I do think it still needs another push.

Let me offer an example fast, altering the suggested charge system slightly...
Lets just say that the charges on the Ion Cannon did not serve as the 'number of shots you could fire,' but instead for the duration of the Ion Cannon's duration or the intensity of the beam. By tweaking with values like duration and delay, you allow for a weapon that has pros and cons by being held for a certain duration -- a long shot has maximum damage potential, but can partially be dodged by a moving battlecruiser. A short shot has less burst potential, doesn't break through shields as easily, and if so desired may ultimately have weaker effects when spammed compared to the effective DPS fully charged laser along and maybe even a more strenuous energy cost.

In short, I think it would be nice to have a little deeper of an interaction with either your own or the enemy team. Even if it's able to mingle with the currently existing lasers, it's still just a mindlessly spammed weapon by your suggested design.

Also, if it seems like I'm trying to excessively promote the concept of delayed firing weapons, that's primarily to contribute to the concept of dodging despite the incredibly bulky nature of the BC. I think a delayed or long term attack is a nice way of getting around that, as it allows the partial or complete evasion of the attack even at superbly close ranges.

Lazorz should be removed...very OP, they obsolete even the obsoleters!! !Kappa!


In seriousness though....

The ION Cannon will quickly become obsolete because its scaled with level 5 lasers. It costs more energy to fire (1200 from 800 of a penta) for what, a 120 energy drain? Lasers will simply overtake the ION Cannon anyway. Or...you rush to the ION Cannon, its not to difficult getting to tier 3, and if your lucky with green you can pick up the ION Cannon which is a measly 150/150/75/40 compared to level 5 lasers which cost 200/100/350/0. We all have had those games, those moving asteroids are easy to catch, and it isn't to difficult to bridge that 40 gap.

WhyteDragon wrote:I entirely disagree. Kinetics cannot compete due to cost issues when a much more reliable and universally used alternative is more present

Kinetics cant compete BOTH because of cost issues and damage...so im agreeing with both Dinochicken and you?


...Maybe we should just shelve the ION Cannon for a later time of discussion because the current weapon problems are kind of getting away.