Cruiser Command As It Is

[grubheadhunter]

Hello To Everyone Developing And Playing Cruiser Command!
I will start off by congragulating the developers on making such an awesome game (I remember playing this on warcraft 3 and back then it was awesome). I am relatively new (around 30 matches) to this game so what I am about to say is possibly inaccurate so please don't wound me for anything I may say that is inaccurate but it is purely observational. So without further ado:

The Game As It Currently Exists
Generally I don't like to divide a game into Early, Mid, and Late game but it helps in understanding the progression of the game and where it stands.

Early Game
As far as I can tell this part is simply about resource gathering. Miners go out and wraiths and corvettes attack and defend to ensure that your team has the economic advantage. These resourcecs translate towards upgrades. While some upgrades offer different benefits I have noticed so far that there is a pattern to these upgrades which player s generally follow.

Mid Game
Once certain key upgrades are researched the BC's now take a more active role in ensuring their economic advantage by contesting asteroid fields. More advanced ships come out at this time, Chompers, Miners and Destroyers make their appearance. However the aim generally to still mine and upgrade.

Late Game
A more accurate way to describe this point in the game is when the engagement between the BC's occur, because rarely (and I mean rarely) have i seen one BC decide to engage the other and it has not ended the game. I have seen some game s end early, either by rushes where a BC with a clear economic advantage has engaged and destroyed the enemy BC by virtue of superior upgrades. The deciding factor iis whether someone decides to engage the other.
Now I'm aware that there are certain strategies one can take to reach this point, Hull/Sheild Tanking, Destroyer Rush ect. But generally, most game s are just a build up to a single engagement between battlecruisers that once initiates cannot be reversed unless one has engine boost and the other does not which I have never seen as it is among (at least what the people who I have seen take command) the essential upgrades.

I'm not complaining, I love the game! But .From my limited experience I have noticed certain hinderances towards experiencing a thoroughly enjoyable game. Please don't take this as criticisms, I hate when somone tells me I'm not doing my own idea right. Its just these things are kinda detracting from the variety (and thus uniqueness) of each game. I'm just gonna put what I'm thinking out there now.
1. I think one large problem to the game has been the inability of somone to escape from the 'final engagement'. Engines boosts are good, but when the other enemy team has them the effect is negated. This is just one idea, but maybe having an ability to jump (pretty much an FTL jump) to any location would be good. If certain dynamics were added (there is a charge time, enemy can dectect if a jump is about to happen, jumps are disabled when core goes below stability percentage, FTL drive is disabled by people boarding the ship, the ability to cloak the BC from enemy ping, the ability to track the BCs last jump ect. Sorry, i just believe the boost ability isn't a viable form of escape, only for maneuvering during the 'final battle'.
2. The BC is the only lategame ship. I dont think this is bad, wraiths and corvettes roles to defend and attack miners are still intact, but destroyers really can become obselete after a certain point in the game.
3. Sorry if im phrasing this wrong, but everything is easily researchable. Im not sure how to describe the problem with this, but let me explain by comparing it to another game people may be familiar with, 'Dota', Sorry to once again compare to another game, its just a means to an end. In late game of 'Dota' items that provide unique advantages or abilities are expsensive but in the course of a standard match only 1 or 2 of the +50 high tier items are attainable forcing player s to prioritise on which items they are going to get. This also makes the game fun as you rarely get a game where you can get all those items but when you do its awesome. There are early game upgrades in Cruiser Command which is nice. There are exspensive late game upgrades which is also good and there are tech tree pathways which is really cool. But I feel that there is no strategic thinking in getting these upgrades as by the time you get to the 'final battle' they are all researched, at least the key ones are.
4. Sorry to write about what I'm going to say next since it really won't offer anything substantial, but the fact that certain upgrades are always researched in a specific order really doesnt add anything to the variety of the game. Mainly im reffering to miner upgrades. Theres no alternative to what you can get. I dont choose to go scan over (the other one (i forgot...)) because they are both really cheap. You dont choose small ship thrusters over small ship hull because you can get them both which you have to. If you dont, your just at a disadvantage and theres no alternative upgrade.

Well. Thats how my primitive perspective has captured a truly complex and interesting game. Its flawed, i know. I just hoped to contribute (thats a bit presumptous and cocky so please excuse me) to something that is obviously going to continously evolve and become more perfect

Also, i would've have put this in the suggestion forum but i thought i might as well add it here.
About Boarding
I dont know what the development has planned (I know its gonna be awesome) but there are a few things i think would dynamic of the game.
1. Races/Specialisations. I dont like to be hackneyed and much less a poacher of ideas, but have any of you ever played FTL? Certain characters in that game were more specialised at different tasks, this made it alot of fun to manage whos doing what as they each are better at certain tasks which defined your strategy. What has this got to do with boarding. Well it doesnt have to apply specifically to boarding, but certain characters/races/specialisations/in game models could be better at boarding or combat in ships, have more health or be better at sabotage.
2. Sabotaging systems? Im pretty sure you have come up with this idea so Ill keep this brief, I think you need to seperate different funtions of the ship e.g. engines, shields, weapons, navigation (sight of enemy ships, your own ships? so that they are individually sabotagable. This way people can focus on different things.
3. This really carries on from the last point. Not to poach of FTL again, but have you thought about making different systems targetable from enemy BC's? If you downplayed on weaponry this would make attacking enemy BC's way more strategic as opposed to firing at shields or Hull. Actually sry. Thats a stupid idea. Sry i know thats probably to difficult to achieve or not what the direction of this game is headed towards.

Anyway. Whoever read this whole inane and excessivly long post I thank you. Please dont judge me too harshly.
Note: I Believe somone whos got a similar idea is DumbMarine from this post http://cruisercommand.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=164

[Tempest]

suggestions may be a more appropriate thread for your post, but as for no retreating final engagement, that all depends on the efficiency and intelligence of your power player. Unless you initiate the engagement or waste energy in such a way that the enemy team gains a large energy advantage, there is no excuse as to the ability to retreat. You can put more GW into engines with a power advantage than they can, can boost longer in total with a larger total reserve. Not to mention Stabilizers increasing the bc's total speed over all by a % the team having the advantage there can chase with less power lost overall.

If you fly to them you waste the energy you'd otherwise use to retreat, unless you preserve a bunch in combat due to jumping them and dealing hull damage you can lower your own shields to pursue, but unless you had an energy advantage on initiation the attacking ship will always lose a chase in the end. Final engagements always have an out if your intelligent enough to pilot effectively and manage power to its fullest potential. effective use of a tractor beam can make retreating more difficult, or using your own trac beam to Push can make it more simple.

BC = lategame ship - the final fight is always won or lost by the bc, if its a game against a bunch of noobs you can kill them with a corvette and a destroyer. However there are ways to utilize the bc as more than just the king on your chess board. you can develop early and mid game harassment methods if you have the economical advantage needed to keep your energy levels high in doing so. Also dont forget that a great many players like to rush and will often bring an end to the game within 15 minutes

As for your upgrade suggestion i do agree with it, Stabilizers should be researched at least once before engine boost can be learned imo, Kinetics are already in an upgrade order that you'd approve of grub, as for the rest there are def things that can be done. But if you limit upgrade order too much, strategy in which decides what to get when and how to save for will be sacrificed. A lot of players get an edge by focusing certain bc upgrades - in example a rush tactic. Broadsides, laser upgrades, boost, core, stabilizers, shielding. those are listed from most to least important for an effective rush tactic, other tactics focus small ships, others focus the ability to retreat utilizing boost, stabilizers, and energy. If by the "final battle" your fully researched you must have been mining your ass off all game, bc upgrades are not the only ones imperative to gameplay, destroyers upgrades, chomper upgrades, small ship general upgrades, powering your dock with chompers, mine layer and upgrades for it, missile tactics, tractor beam, purchasing drones for more in battle manpower availability and yamato/purges. theres always gonna be a demand on your minerals, when you think you have EVERYTHING you fall back onto high missle/yamato use, if your power generation is great and you are confident you can keep the gap between both bc's present and avoid the enemies you can use the mass rep to produce the resources needed to get what you need faster. ships are very expensive, to utilize an effective destroyer tactic your spending up the ass on it, if you find yourself having extra minerals throw shields and nullifiers on all of your small ships or at least the ones most sensitive to attack.

Your analysis of the map is great though seeing as you've played so little, but talk to me in game i have a lot i can teach ya :p

[Capricis]

The game is hardly 'mapped out' if you understand me. People have a very unclear picture at the moment as to when they have an advantage, if they can win by attacking now, or if their odds are better ten minutes from now. On top if this most games are six more or less random people on each team who don't know what each other is capable of. This may not be the case but I hope when people get better and start forming more teams, playing with and against teams that are consistent, things will look more clear and games won't reach 'late game' as often. This would make the upgrade order early game more important. I already think the order is important now and far from concrete though.

Also I'd like to mention that it is very very hard to get both broads and boost by the first kerm spawn. The first kerm spawn is important. Do you understand me? (=

And I do agree with Tempest, there is always a use for your resources.

[Siretu]

I'd like to start with pointing out that you've done a great job with your post and it touches on some very important issues. Don't apologize for this. Constructive criticism is always welcome, especially when it is as well thought-out and presented as your post. Also, factual error: I am the only developer.

There is at least some more to the game that you might not have experienced yet. There are different strategies and upgrade orders (which Tempest and Capricis touched upon) but I still agree with you. Most matches play out very similarly. In games with 12 experienced player that are communicating with each other, you can get a totally different playing experience, but most pub games generally go the same way.

1. I agree. It is hard to escape the final engagement. It used to be much worse though. In earlier versions, you basically lost if you lost shields because the only way to get shields back up was to not take damage for 10 seconds. Still, it could be much better. I have been considering adding a warp engine (thread here) but it kind of got side tracked. It's still something I'd like to consider in the future because it does make battles less final. However you still have to consider the impact it has on rush strategies(which help make the game less about the same upgrade order and such, which you also mentioned).

2. I'd argue that destroyers don't really become obsolete after a certain point. From what I've heard, they can be very vital in winning the game and don't stop becoming useful as long as the destroyer pilot is cautious and doesn't die.

3. I agree. This is something I've been working on changing slowly. There are several ways I'm working on this. The first way is easy. I'm just adding more and more upgrades in the hope that they'll open up more alternatives. The second way is a bit harder, and involves making exclusive upgrades where you have to make a choice. Some examples of this is the power transfer upgrade(Ionic/Nanite/Plasma) and the kinetic branch. In the future, I'd like to add more weapon types that will have their own branches as well as being exclusive with the other weapons. So you might only get to choose either Electric weapons or Kinetic, for example.

4. I feel like this ties into the third point a lot. The biggest challenge with this is the balancing. It's incredibly hard to balance things correctly. I mean, it's not that hard to get something to the point where it's okay, but not too good. The big problem is making sure that the choices are actually choices and that there's not one choice that is obviously better.

Again, you don't have to apologize for your post. It's great. I don't think anyone found it presumptuous or cocky.

As for your boarding suggestions:

1. I've consider it and people are generally divided about this. There's a thread about it here(it's on the last page in the suggestions forums so many people haven't read it). I was considering tying it into the rep reward skins, but I dislike giving in-game bonuses to people with a lot of rep. I know it's not supposed to be upgrades but rather different balanced bonuses but again, it's hard to balance so there's no clear best choice.

2. Yeah, this is going to be implemented in one way or another(or several).

3. I've considered it, but it's hard to do the targeting in a good way since CC combat works fundamentally different from FTL. However, CC already has some kind of targeting where debris, fire and explosions occur at the place in the ship that you fire at(so firing at the back causes more debris in the back of the ship, for example). I might implement something like this in the future. I've considered making upgrades physical inside the BC. This would open them up to harass from boarders and maybe disabling them if they get covered in debris?

[Red-Rocket]

FTL is entirely acceptable to draw ideas on, lets face it, they are pretty similar in the core idea.
good post
There are alot of suggestions in the threads to change this sort of BC doomsday problem
Missiles on ships
Boarding
And probably the biggest one that will change the momentum of the game would be long range missiles

[DumbMarine]

I appreciate you posting your thoughts, grubheadhunter.

1. I think one large problem to the game has been the inability of somone to escape from the 'final engagement'.

I think someone suggested an emergency boost at some point, it would be like the engine boost but drop your shields, which would make using it to pursue an attacker risky. However, right now, it's actually really difficult to pin someone down for a final engagement, because you can't chase someone and broadside them at the same time and destroyers can't chase the BC when it's moving at 50 m/s. And without broadsides you ain't getting a kill.

In newbie games its impossible to escape from the final engagement because there's this sort of mental block newbies have about raising power levels to levels that drain the capacitor. The BC can't go faster than 15 m/s, the BC can't have more than 2000 shields. I don't know if a tutorial would help here, or some sort of clever UI trick that convinces newbies it's okay to run the engines at 500 GW.

2. The BC is the only lategame ship.

In premades it's nearly impossible to kill the BC without a destroyer helping. In addition, chompers and minelayers retain usefulness even during the final battle.

3. Sorry if im phrasing this wrong, but everything is easily researchable.

I think you're touching on the right idea. In a lot of cases you research everything before you start truly playing this game. This is a drag on all levels of play, especially on newbies. I've heard from new players before that CC is 30 minutes of boring followed by 2 minutes of actual gameplay. However, making things expensive doesn't work out so well in Cruiser Command. The main reason it works in DotA is you get money by killing things. In CC, you get money by staring at rocks. And more rocks. And more rocks. And there's the tendency to avoid combat until you've got all the upgrades you want, which makes the game longer but not more fun. The exception being kermiculite, which is a resource that's (theoretically) fought over. I am hoping that more things get added to the science console at some point.

I've been quietly pushing for more upgrades that either have drawbacks attached, some sort of counterplay, or that are mutually exclusive, so that researching an upgrade stops being a no-brainer and instead requires some team-thought. Each upgrade should support a style of gameplay. Not every team needs a mass replicator, for example, but if you get one and take advantage of the extra resources you can come out ahead. In DotA, you can only have 6 items, and not every item is a smart buy for every hero. I think the same philosophy can work here.

4. ...the fact that certain upgrades are always researched in a specific order really doesnt add anything to the variety of the game.

It's true. I wish the upgrades had less of an optimal research order. The trick is in the details though, what numbers need to be adjusted to get the best result? Though, to be fair, eco upgrades are always going to be preferred first for a team that's focused on the long run, and there's only 3 eco upgrades you can get (miner laser, miner scanner, and vessel energy upgrades).

[grubheadhunter]

You guys sure are pleasent.
To everyone thats given tips so far on what I should do thank you alot (Thanks Tempest for the advice, also this is my ingame name but I'll probably be off for a month while I finish up my exams). My brother and I got hooked on this and even people who are kind and willing to give advice are limited during gameplay by what they can type while trying to win the game.

Hmmm, from other new players and just by talking with my brother it seems that alot of our inexperience has to do with the control of power and the command consoles. I've only just begun figuring out the upgrade part of it but the other consoles felt inaccesible for the first couple of games (still struggling with it). This might just be me, but i think thats why most new players graviate towards playing deployable ships.
Anyway, i think thats what makes CC such a good game. Rarely can new players single handedly ruin the game because the negative impact they can contribute is mitigated somewhat by the fact that they take on less significant (but still highly enjoyable) roles. The most important jobs (command) meanwhile are generally delegated to the most experienced player making it to an extent (as every game still has to be learnt) easily accessible for a growing community.

Thanks for responding DumbMarine, I agree with what your saying. Though the only thing I might contest with is about the getting the key upgrades part. I know CC isnt about just a few select choices as having a vast and varying library of upgrades to choose from are a large part of what makes it such a cool game, but the sucessfulness of DOTA in that regard wasn't that these items made it more fun to kill people (don't get me wrong, I love killing people) but that it meant people had to prioritise on a certain playstyle.
Though that sense of enjoyment experienced when you managed to get alot of items only because your first one accelerated your income (which translates to kills and thus a glorious sense of power!!!) your right about.
Now that. That i think, wouldn't make sense in CC as it would mean another team has a distinct economic (probably mining) advantage.

Anwyay, thanks Siretu for developing this. This really is one of those standalone mods that becomes for some the other reason people are playing a game. As for the rest, it becomes the reason.

One final point. That post you made about the classes in the other thread is brilliant. The whole thing about directing beginners into a certain role so they are intergrated smoothly and how classes do not have a distinct advantage over each other is just plain genius. Twas just thinking, maybe in addition to unlocking classes with merits for more experienced roles, perhaps skins for each class also are unlocked as you gain rep. This way you can have easily identifiable roles (e.g. miner, commander) while touching base with player variation...

Ok, another final point (sorry). Right now there aren't many choices for the small ships. I just think it would diversify and make the game alot more fun if wraiths or corvettes had tech tree options (not nessesarily mutually exclusive, more of a strategic investment [or mutually exsclusive if you want]. Something that you wouldn't waste minerals on if you were planning on doing this specific strategy).

....I think I have another final point. The last idea led me to realize what i was trying to say in the last post. Some upgrades really should be combined into bigger more exspensive ones. For example, the small ships thrusters are all really cheap and are generally upgraded in sets of twos or threes. While making them into larger packages isn't anything significant, it leads into that strategic minded thinking as the impact of more exspensive yet more significant upgrades are more noticeable and you can really feel the weight of them. This is partially psychological, but I've noticed in other games that you really feel the impact and worth of something if more time is spent investing in it as it really becomes and active choice in a teams stratagem. Reffering back to what I was saying before, bigger more exspesive upgrades (you can still have 1-10 levels of them [people will still feel the are leveling up that option]) make game choices mean more to a player and thats a large part of what makes each game memorable. I strongly believe this should be taken into consideration as it makes each game more streamlined, significant, strategic, memorable and more enjoyable.

P.S. Ok, i have rethought what i just wrote in the paragraph above. Maybe the strategic upgrades are things like enginer boost which are already exspensive, while the cheap upgrades are the ones that go from 1-10. Ok, i think thats actually good. But i still think being able to upgrade all the small ships hull and thrusters really easily not right... maybe they should get more expsensive or the the increments are smaller and more exspensive i.e. 1-10 but with the same cost for levels? I dunno. But do you get what I'm saying?

P.S.S. Its really just a minor point, but having all those upgrades jammed onto one menu is kinda flustering the first time around (Im reffering to the menu that opens when you click on the BC options. I think it would just be slightly more helpful if maybe they were categorised into shields/energy/movement/navigation ect. Sorry, it really is only a minor thing but I believe it would help begginers to grasp the core concepts.

Also, one final (I've said that a couple times now, sorry) thing, I believe that as it is right now, detection is kinda rudimentary. You have a ping which cant tell what ship is what which is good, but I kinda believe that information is a large part of strategy and to reflect this, knowing where people on the map should be a bit more dynamic than just a ping. I know that might be a bit too simplistic and not very helpful but if you want me to elaborate i would be glad too.
EDIT: Ok, just found out about the predator missles and the cloak for ships. I should really play the game a bit more before making these posts. Im sorry about saying that detection is rudimentary. I still think though there should be a way to make a BC cloaked as well. Maybe whenever you completely stop you no longer show up on ping?

Oh. And to everyone whos seen this. Sorry about having a damn long post.

[Tempest]

there could be a stealth module upgrade that allows for a bc to be pingless when not in motion at all, i do actually love this idea. It would make evasion and trickery so much more strategic, lose your enemy then go into stealth mode, bc is not invis but does not get pinged unless it goes into motion. Jeez that would make this game a bit different, but imo its in a good way.

Your very welcome for the tips, and i have tons more for you. Talk with me in game id like to teach you what i know, since clearly your smart enough to understand and implement the information put in front of you, your brother is also welcome to the information, my name is also the same in game, ill see you around im sure.

[Siretu]

You guys should probably confirm that you're on the same server, in case you haven't already.

[Red-Rocket]

well to #3 it is true in lower levels everything is upgraded, higher levels youl see broadside rushes and aggresive pushes to center but it is a fact that once everything is upgraded you full out attack. i suggested somewhere about new tiers of upgrade consoles that can enhance late game experience to find more resources and upgrades, having everything on first upgrade console will make you formidable and you can play aggresivly, instead of just dumping on missiles and hull ups