Changing Cruiser Command's direction

[zakhennahr]

We have played just a few games of "6v6 wraiths" with AI miners, and they were a large amount of fun. I fully support this idea for that reason.

[GUNdALF]

Mhm I think it is difficult. I like the current mode very much. For Beginners Mining seem to be boring, but at the moment it is kind of a reputation thing. You have to gain "honor" to do other stuff. First everyone starts with mining. Everyone of us here in this forum did it like this. Responsible Mining, mining is important. You need to do it to win the game it is more important than harrasing. No Offense, but you can win a game if you have good miners and a bad harrass if the enemy harras is also not that good. But with a good harass and bad miners you have lost the game.
So wraithing means more fun, perhaps. But put 3 Pro Wraiths in one team and 3 not that good wraiths in the other team and you will get the same as now: a destroyed team without any chance. Wraithing is getting more important. Wraithing is also very difficult. You need to know the wrapping Edges of the map, otherwise you fly through the whole map. You need to know that you first should get some energy. And finally you ave to handle side thrusters and have to know that you are faster with thrusters than with normal engines. And then there are this asteroides and ships they can ramm... Notice: they get some fly experience with miners. Flying somewhere, STOP eingnes, BE CAREFULL about asteroides and so on. (So they don't have to take care about to many ships, who is allied/enemy in case of ramming, navigation between asteroides and ships and try to shoot)
I often give ~30 rep players the chance to wraith... and it is horrible what i have to seee... it is pain in my eyes.. but they mine very well...
Well i would give this new mode a chance, but i wanted to raise the idea impementing this as a new mode I can choose when I open up a new game. So i can shoose between the old one and this new one.

Remember our current mode are the roots of our map and we made it through that. We have our fun and I notice some more players atm who try it out and like it.

EDIT: I hope my english is not to bad

[Siretu]

The problem I think is that just because mining is important and a way to train beginner's, I'm not sure if it's the best way to increase the community if the new players have to sit through 15+ games of doing something they find tedious.

As I see it, it might be worth having one player miner, but I'm not sure. This role could be given to someone who has 15-30 rep while the new (and the very experienced) players take wraiths and corvettes.

I might make it a mode, but I'm not sure

[Red-Rocket]

we need more options for income out there
maybe resource stations
or an upgrade that allows the BC to send out a little automated drone or more to nearby astroids or give tractor beam some ability ^^

[zakhennahr]

I realize this is starting to become off-topic, but, Red-Rocket, we already have enough ways to get resources.

• Miner
• Chomper
• AI Miner
• Infiltrator
• Mass Replicator

[Red-Rocket]

yes to get a single resource option but more directions are needed like mass rep is one.

[WhyteDragon]

But don't we really have the basic methods of getting materials covered?

• Gathering resources from something. (Asteroids.)
• Making resources from nothing. (Mass Replicator)
• Stealing resources that have been created. (Infiltration)

What else is there to draw from..? <_<' We could expand further upon these already established concepts, I.E. salvaging ships, but that isn't another way to 'gain resources.'

The only capital you can see in the game is Asteroids, Ships, Energy, Missiles, and Equipment to be honest. Asteroids and Energy are already utilized, Ships are already used to power dock and thereby supply the Mass Replicator, Missiles already serve no function in terms of production and should -remain- that way, energy is utilized for Mass Replicator, and Equipment serves as a method of promoting Infiltration which is already a method of resource production. Also, I'm not counting upgrades.

We don't need more Mining Ships for asteroids. That much is already. Between AI miners, human miners, and chompers, we have well enough.

I don't think you can really get more in depth with Mass Replicator. It's a literal Energy to Resource conversion, and the only things I can think of in terms of altering it would be to give it its own little Capacitor that you could provide for using the Power Console, but that thing is already cluttered as hell. Previous mention has been given to burning resources for energy, but that's a different matter entirely.

You can already steal Minerals, Equipment, and Missiles by infiltrating, so that would only leave Energy and Ships. The concept of Energy Sapping the enemy BC is appealing, and I know stealing ships has been discussed already, but I don't think either really address the issue of 'ways to gather resources.'

However, there is one option I can think of that might actually prove as an interesting game mechanic: Debris Salvaging. Whenever a ship dies, it leaves behind floating debris that a miner or chomper can come by and start mining. It'll hold a partial refund of the ship's cost (I.E. maybe 50%) giving a further incentive for wraith pilots and miners to be extra careful in fear of giving additional resources to the enemy. This applies especially so to destroyers, in fear of giving their enemy additional Kermiculite. The issue? It's only building up upon Miners/Chompers/AI Miners again.

Aside from that, I got nothing.

I think a better question to ask is; should there be more methods of obtaining resources? I would like to point out that the largest method of resource gathering is always going to be mining asteroid fields. That should never change. I feel like if we start adding too many methods of resource production that doesn't require direct mining, you'll produce a game that'll end up with no miners being necessary and just 6 manning the BC while still gaining resources. And that doesn't feel right to me.

[Siretu]

I agree with WhyteDragon. Red-rocket, I think you have to expand upon why we need more income options.

However, I think it is starting to get slightly off-topic. I feel like this thread should be more focus on the change in small ship focus.

[WhyteDragon]

For the sake of clarification, I'm going to elaborate on all the changes I believe should take place and why.

Wraith:
Cost: 60r, 30b, 30y - Allows the creation of a simple, cheap ship that allows players to continue combat without bogging down the economy. Also goes hand in hand with stat changes.

Health: 270 (+35/Hull Up > 550) - Makes wraiths much more frail in order to ensure that Wraith>Miner ramming isn't as effective. Also offers a form of defense for Miners when put in a 1v1 situation due to mining laser, forcing wraiths to make team plays.

Damage: 10 (+1/Damage Level > 15) - Requires 40 hits in a 1v1 fight, 20 hits each in a 2v1 fight. I think it's a good compromise.

Damage Upgrade: 10y, 20r - Since the damage upgrade wouldn't be as effective, the cost should be reduced -- but not by too much since wraiths are still going to be widely used during the early game, meaning the investment would still be worthwhile.

EMP Disable: 3s Duration, Reduces Current Throttle - I feel as if the major focus of EMP in a mass wraith fight should be the disabling of the Turbo Throttle more than anything. If you create a situation where several wraiths can continually disable throttle over and over, the miner will be unable to move at all and will simply get buttrammed by several wraiths and die without a chance. The reduction of throttle still gives a fighting chance by allowing the miner to attempt to dodge the second EMP shot by utilizing superior positioning, even at a reduced speed.

Tenative - Upgrade, Plasma Leech: Every plasma shot from the wraith drains 5 energy from the target it strikes. - Obviously, wraiths will begin to have an issue late game with falling off in terms of combat and will become a support ship used primarily for EMPs. However, as EMPs are nerfed in order to balance the miner/wraith combat scheme, I feel as if they need a potential upgrade that may help them give an edge in larger scale combat. Again, it's a tentative suggestion.

Speed, Side Thrusters, Acceleration, Projectile Speed, Capacitor, Energy Regeneration: As is. - Lets be frank. The movement mechanics of wraith are pretty much perfect as they are and don't need to be fiddled with. So I think we can safely assume the rest can stay the same.

Metagame:

Debris Salvaging: Destroyed Small Ships leave behind a debris field that can be harvested. - I really want to push this idea. At the moment, there is already a notable hindrance for losing a small ship in that you cost your team resources. This can either make or break a team. So I'd like to offer this as a double edged sword; if either team could harvest the remains of a dead small ship, you create a situation where there is still a reward for escaping closer to the battlecruiser. Again, we want a focus on small ship battles if we take this route, and in a situation like this you create the potential to further capitalize upon any mistake made or limit the hindrance you cause your team.

Hanger Space: 12 Slots - Again, small ship focus means you need more space to apply more ships. If you assume you're going to have at least 2 AI miners out at all times with this change, you need to at least make a 2 slot compensation for that. 14 or more starts to come to the point of being of excess -- you should be expecting 3 miners, 3 wraiths, a corvette, a chomper, a minerlayer, an infiltrator, and two wild cards. I think that's more than reasonable.


Possible Issues:

Cruiser Hopping: Okay, lets be honest. There's going to be a huge chance people will simply say 'screw wraiths' and run around with the BC using the extra man power instead, chomping fields and shooting down wraiths with the lasers. It is a very potent strategy that usually doesn't get utilized due to a lack of manpower - but with 3 AI, that issue is completely overlooked. You get enough for a chomper, assign a Nav, Power, and Chomper, get a bot on weapons, refining, and science then have the rest as human miners. The miners stick decently close to the BC and they're going to be mostly scot free because of the inability to contest a battlecruiser with a wraith, even three. It's going to be a lot easier to aim at wraiths when you can spray and pray at a group of three. It also means you're completely prepared to fight kerm with the BC. Then again, however, this takes a lot of coordination and it limits the resources you can harvest and leaves the enemy free to do as they please. You also do need to get the chomper before you can apply it, so maybe I'm worrying over nothing.

Other Notes:

I think Corvettes and Miners are currently fine. They match up nicely to the battlecruiser given their cost, which is the biggest issue of all. It's easier to balance one ship (the wraith) around everything else than to balance everything else around it. I still agree with the 3 starting AIs, which allows you to do either 3 AI miners, 2 AI miners and a refiner, or even Science/Weapons/Refining.

[Siretu]

Thank you WhyteDragon for summarizing what I had in mind. The stats you suggested seem very good to me.

From now on, this is the basis for discussion. Discuss additional changes to what Whyte suggested, modifications of his changes or on removing some of his changes.