Guided Torpedos - A viable and fun way to expand on Weapons?

Any suggestions or ideas regarding cruiser command
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Phytor
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Guided Torpedos - A viable and fun way to expand on Weapons?

Post by Phytor »

I was thinking about the difference between dealing damage with SS and the W.console and why it is so much more fun to fly around - which in turn means I'm doing something else while I'm dealing damage to the enemy, but not always or not just simply in that notion alone.

While I'm in a SS, what am I doing for the team?
I'm discovering asteroid fields for my (other) miners.
I defend my allies and kill enemy scum.
I'm locating enemy pilots who use the nullifier.
In short: I'm making my enemies reakt to my actions – simply by my mere presence even.
But most importantly: I'm flying a space ship - IN SPACE! How cool is that?
Also: I'm flying a space ship in the notion of doing everything I listed above.

What does the W.console guy do while I have my sweet space adventure? … Basically nothing – at least nothing untill someone (and usually only in the end game when the fully/decently upgraded BC) comes along to shoot at.
I think THIS is why every captain in their right mind will man the W.console with a drone early/mid game when you don't need to compensate with a player's skill to adjust to the enemy's energy (shields) management.

Now, to solve this 'boredom-problem' at the W.console, I propose to you, a new type of weapon system which can be launched from the front of the BC by the W.console for energy, but cannot be handled by a drone since it's too complicated for the simple right-click-spam drone to handle, but will feel natural to a human player.

I speak of the Guided Torpedo!

When hitting „T“ or the button in the command card, the player launches a mid-range, (maybe) slow (I'll leave the speed up to your personal preference, Siretu) Torpedo with limited duration of flight before self destruct (blowing up) and the option to detonate it at will (before fuel runs out, or because you reached your destination).
The special gimmick to this is – as the name already implies – that it can be steered by the player by either the „A“ and „D“ keys which will alter the angle at which it is traveling by a set amount XOR just use the RMB to steer it like a SS currently is, which would require less skill, but would allow for more precise manouvers – which in turn will show off your skill when … let's say you pass though an asteroid field to reach that AI miner or even a wraith who thinks he's so smart to hide behind one instead of trying to shoot it down (+showing skill in avoiding counter measures).

Yes, I didn't mention it untill now, but I think you should be able to run away from it and a SS should be able to shoot it down (with enough skill to avoid crashing into it and miners should have upgrades and/or their red beam activated to handle this threat (or just simply avoid it of course, which will stop them from mining a bit)).

The Guided Torpedo should do the following:
It should handle as if you launched a SS from the hangar console (changing the camera, command card, deselect the marine and change controled unit to Guided Torpedo and so on …).
It's speed should not be possible to be altered mid-flight and let it turn like … let's say a destroyer or less even.
The player should be able to detonate it prematurely with maybe the „F“ key or „D“ for „Detonate“
Fuel: The amount of fuel available should be indicated by the throttle bar which is already a given to any SS and also, this should make it properly intuitive for a noob as an indicaton of how much longer you can fly before self destruct (the throttle bar grows smaller as you reach zero fuel – don't be misguided, speed won't change, just the indicator or just make it deplete mana - this might be easier to program).
I think it's obvious, but I'll say it anyway: self destruct should be like a player's „Detonation“ command (If mFuel <= 0 Then Run 'Detonate' EndIf). This should minimize frustration caused by lack of skill and bring a feeling of "Oh man! So close... you won't get away next time!".
„Detonation“ should be an AoE-blast like the sieged tank's – allowing for friendly fire if used incorrectly, or the enemy is somehow skilled enough to use your torpedo against nearby AI-miners if controled by a stubborn noob. (please kick trolls abusing friendly fire extensively ;D)
The Guided Torpedo should NOT „Detonate“ on raming an object, but instead lose hull (I said 'hull' so it can be upgraded alongside SS' hull points (+hull from upgrades should be minimal, but compensate for enemy upgrades in a ½ or 1/3 ratio) and fail to detonate if it is „killed“.
It should have a cooldown – maybe as long as the cooldown for the BC's boosters... 30 seconds or something after rebuilding is initiated – it should thereby feel like an awesome experience instead of a spamy projectile which you wouldn't have to handle with any care whatsoever. Explane it with internal construction-nanobots in the imaginary Torpedo Bay (By that I also mean, that you don't need to build a torpedo seperately in the construction console, otherwise it would be too much work to handle for a newbie – this is an arcade game afterall ;) ).

Balance for skill:
While the features I listed make the Guided Torpedo seem OP to some players, I want to reasure you that in actuality I did not intend it to be so.
In fact, I want it to be weak as crud, but be unlocked from the start of the match so that a captain can make a well educated decision on whether he/she wants to upgrade it for his Weapons-buddy or if upgrades would be wasted on a noob.

How will this new toy bring balance for skill?
While a newbie should be able to harras enemy miners and maybe also help out his teammates in trouble, a skilled player should be able to explore its' wast potential when upgraded or mabe even without any upgrades. Although this doesn't seem like much, a skilled enemy will render it nearly useless except for AI miners who will boost away on sight – stoping/hindering them from mining. Upgrades on the other hand may narrow down diminishing returns in skill comparisons (depending on the upgrades Siretu will be willing to implement of course).
As one additional counter measure except flying away from it or shooting it down, I just thought of a wraith who could EMP the GT to make it explode prematurely or make the pilot lose control over its steering to maybe make it damage the enemy instead for instance.

Upgrades for the Guided Torpedo:
I am aware, that this is a very delicate topic, so I'll try to think of upgrades that won't affect balance too much but still make the GT somewhat useful, so people won't be scared off or start hating on the idea simply for the sake of arguing. Remember, that the GT is meant for support purposes, so that the poor soul on W.console doesn't need to die of boredom, but also feel amazing, when killing off an already weakened enemy.

Upgrades that have an effect on the GT:
SS Hull upgrade -> increases the GT's hull very slightly (to compensate for enemy dmg upgrades in a ½ or maybe only a 1/3 ratio).
SS Energy upgrade -> inreases fuel efficiency/mana amount very slightly, thus increasing effective range.
BC Turn rate thingy researched -> increases the GT's turning rate slighly or unlock a similar spell for the GT.
These will upgrade the GT for a noob even though the captain is against utilizing it and make it a bit more useful when reaching later stages of the game.

GT exclusive upgrades:
This gives a great opportunity to expand upon the branching tiers idea we already have in kinetics and plasma transfer (as a reminder: there are two more upgrades besides ionic ;P).

Branch A: Utility – gives the GT additional gimmicks
sub-branch Alpha: on „Detonation“: Leaves behind a weak DoT-AoE the size of a psy-storm for a short period.
Tier 2: More damage for AoE

sub-branch Beta: on „Detonation“: Leaves behind an AoE the size of a psy-storm which slows down all SS within the AoE for the duration of staying inside as a debuff. OR: reseting throttle to 30% in a 1-second interval for 3 seconds. Explane it with fluctuation in energy capacitors; or similar to when your SS runs out of mana mid-flight. Skilled players will simply hold/spam „W“ I guess.
Tier 2: increase Area of Effect (to 1.3 or 1.6, maybe 2 times a psy-storm)

sub-branch Gamma: on „Detonation“: Disables victim's Generators in an AoE-blast for a short period of time. The SS won't be able to regenerate Mana for like... 3-5 seconds.
Tier 2: Additionally, siphon Energy from victim(s). SS loses like... 35-50% of its' current mana.

Branch B: Power – enhances the GT's combat behavior
sub-branch Alpha: Increases speed – Warning: also increases fuel consumption (range keeps the same)
Tier 2: Decrease fuel consumption (range increases)

sub-branch Beta: Enhance mavouverbility – increase turning rate, accumulative with passive upgrade mentioned above or this may unlock an ability to increase the turn rate significantly.
Tier 2: Increase speed – Warning: also increases fuel consumption (range keeps the same again)

sub-branch Gamma: Bigger AoE-blast (same damage)
Tier 2: Increase Damage by maybe x1.5 – Noobs/Newbies should feel the need to find something better than the GT to deal damage against the enemy and that's when penta-bursts and the general laser upgrades come in.
I also thought of a third branch, that would benefit the launcher itself, like decreasing energy cost to build a GT XOR cooldown, but this thread is already hard to digest at once I think ^^. Please bear with me, I'm almost done.

To sumarize:
Noob VS Noob – Noob will learn to hit enemies, the enemy will learn to avoid and maybe counter it over time. The Noob may want to focus on AI miners if the enemy becomes too aware of the GT-spamer-noob.
Noob VS Pro – Noob will most likely not hit a Pro with a GT but maybe repell, maybe even kill a destroyer and feel good about it. Again, AI miners will run/turbo away, the Noob may find that funny and entertaining.
Pro VS Pro – I think a Pro might think of something else instead of dealing damage to the enemy. Disturbing AI and player miners might be a valid and respectable use of the GT. Not to mention the possibilities when aiding your Wraith/Corvette/Desroyer/Miner comrades in times of urgent need or scouting for enemies who might be nearby, cloaked by a nullifier or just make the enemy feel a bit more uneasy around you.

Again, the GT should not be able to two-shot Miners or seriously damage the BC over a big distance; I was thinking of a range from BC spawn to … let's say 2/3 of the distance to the centre of the map (BC might need to move a bit after kerm spawn for the GT to reach enemy miners behind the kerm-field so the enemy needs to keep an eye out and not just stand there idlely mining). It should become weaker the more upgrades the enemy gets, but keep up with them a bit with utility and psychological warfare instead of damage, so it will neither be OP nor rendered totally useless later on.

It's a toy for everyone and not a Meta-changer for min-maxing Pros (but I guess Pros will find a way to implement this new weapon system to their play if they so desire (see upgrades)).

Thank you for reading through this wall of text and I hope you can acknowledge the effort I put into working on this idea I got from playing Star Conflict (took me like 5-6 hours and it's 6am now :D )

If you want to get a feeling of what I mean; Star Conflict is a F2P MMO-3D-spacecraft-arcade-shooter – unlock a Jericho long-range frigate and try it out for yourself.
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Re: Guided Torpedos - A viable and fun way to expand on Weap

Post by Red-Rocket »

people are always reviewing CC as giving them the Submarine Vibes, so why not? although i suggest it be strong so people will use it alot and see how it handles, keep it that way for a little while instead of calling for immediate nerf so players can explore options on making it better, note that rate of torpedo shots will be very slow because of fire rates, these are direct guided. also, will this have its own console? because i would rename it guided missiles, and the normal weapons console unguided missiles, which brings me up to another thing, are these loadable or a spell like lazers?, 2 more launchers would be cool for it if it where (Long slim ones up between Science and Upgrades Consoles would be cool)
Oh its not orders I'm giving, but rather... "aggressive suggestions".
Phytor
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Re: Guided Torpedos - A viable and fun way to expand on Weap

Post by Phytor »

I think a general problem is, that helms is already stuffed densly with consoles. I mean, I don't see how we could add another seperate console without redesigning the interior.
But that's besides the point I guess. I'm trying to add something fun to the existing weapons console, so that a captain may think about using the weapons drone for something else instead and the players may have something with a bit more 'oomph' and 'boom' instead of more of the same 'pew pew'.
...are these loadable or a spell like lazers?
They would be both, I guess. In a sense, that you would need to spend weapons energy and a bit of time to load it like a Yamato does with minerals (by hitting the "L" key for "Load Guided Torpedo" maybe).
My numbers are arbitrary, but people are setting weapons mostly to 100, so this might allow the GT to need 10-20 seconds of loading time (= 1000 to 2000 weapons energy per GT to build, not 20 seconds of cast time ^^), whilst the 'building spell' or better yet, the 'launching spell' would have a 30 second cooldown (+ X seconds spell cast for building one). This should keep the captain from arguing too much about wasting energy, since you would not deplete energy reserves constantly like a spamy single/penta burst against random ships flying by.
After that, it would be launched via the "T" key and you could then fly it whereever you want as long as your fuel lasts. If it were to be this weak, maybe it could have a bigger range than what I have proposed initially.
...will this have its own console?
I don't think that would be neccessary. I envisioned the W.console to do everything I listed above (loading the GT and fireing/steering it). I also think, that the player marine may regain connection to the W.console, once the GT is used up, so he can immediatly start shooting lasers if need be - but the camera should still remain at the postion of the detonated GT for a second to have the player see the outcome of his/her assault.
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Re: Guided Torpedos - A viable and fun way to expand on Weap

Post by Siretu »

Well, I kind of like the idea, but I don't think it helps the parts of the weapon console that needs help.

This new feature would target the early/mid-game when lots of people are out in small ships. Making the weapon console more fun at this stage is not something I see as a problem. People have other stuff to do, so there's no reason to put them on weapons, especially since you can put a drone on it to have some defense around the BC.

The main problem I see with weapons right now is the end game, when it becomes pretty boring to be on weapons since you just have to right-click. I don't feel like your idea would help that problem. Since BCs are usually pretty close, the aspect of guiding the missile is fairly irrelevant.
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Phytor
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Re: Guided Torpedos - A viable and fun way to expand on Weap

Post by Phytor »

Yea, I see your point. Frankly, I didn't intend the GT to be an endgame anti-BC-weapon like we already have it with the Yamato, but more of a counter to skillfull wraith pilots who just bust open newbies' and noobs' behinds.
I was just trying to be overly cautious with the GT's power so people won't get scared of it when I first introduce the idea.
A YouTube video about balancing for skill made me post this. It described a pretty interesting viewpoint on players' skill in gaming and how to balance for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w

So... after revisiting this video, I kinda think my original concept for the GT makes it a bit underpowered. Maybe it should actually 2-hit an unupgraded SS regarding the great restrictions to it's use. But still - the main focus should be, that there are better ways of doing the same - to reach the same goal you're trying to approach (which would mean: let go of the Torpedo already and have a seat in a wraith - it's sweet, try it out!). I mean: imagine a noob/newbie who knows next to nothing about the game... he'll wander around the ship, exploring it - occationally asking some easy questions... but eventually he'll be either put into a miner, or a wraith (depending on the captain and his/her preferences regarding AI-mining). If he's put into a miner, chances are, he'll be shoot to pieces, because he didn't bother to look at the command card and the tooltips associated to his spells... probably also damaging his miner while raming absolutely EVERYTHING in his way before mining his first piece of ore - but nevermind that...

What if he is put in charge of escorting and defending the team's miners or the captain wants his wraiths to go and harras the enemy?

Well... first, he'll get hit by a random kermi 'roid of course ;P hehe. However, upon learning how to fly this thing, he'll probably approach an enemy miner - since there is nothing else to get drawn towards besides those red pings on the minimap... He sees it, he engages it, gets ready to rain hell upon the poor soul.... and it turbos away... yea, ok... "what was that? it ran away so fast!" - "yea, he turboed. Miners do that" - "so, what do I do?" - "EMP it first..." - "What?" - "press 'E' and click on the miner to EMP it" - "ok" ...
Panting, while chasing the escaped miner, he encounters a new kind of ship... it doesn't look like the one he's flying or that thing he wanted to kill at first... mesmerised by this missile powered shark's design he just simply engages it without thinking too much about it... The enemy comes close and now it's spamming his shotgun like lazor barrage at the little noob and tears him a new one - Shocked about his own impotence, the noob wraith spams the RMB to get away but forgets to accelerate and ultimatly dies...

Yea... chances are this noob/newbie isn't the only one in his team; probably because Degra had to distribute 3-4 noobs, so everyone got a fair share of noobs to get annoyed by - hehe ^^

So: Newbies will learn to become better at what they do eventually, but if they have to face a skilled player or even a veteran team, they just have NO chance of winning SS fights. This should be where the Guided Torpedo comes in handy. If an enemy Pro is approaching the BC to annoy the hell out of it, a Newbie should have a way to make the pro stop bullying him and his teammates or at least make the Pro gtfo and retreat to his BC.
Later, when the Noob has played more games, he might discover side thrusters and how to EMP properly and become a better player in general... but untill then...
A Pro on the other hand should be able to NOT get overwhelmed by this "noob-tube" easily (Modern Warfare - see youtube link), simply because he knows how to handle his ship and the threat the GT is presenting, while still being vulnarable to beeing cooky and die.
Then again, a Pro might be able to utilize the GT to his team's advantage and find ways to support others via upgrades like slowing-field or EMP-blast - a range upgrade might make it into a little siege weapon for BC vs BC. But, yea - it wasn't meant for that, but it's still an option maybe worth considering.

In short: I understand, that you think the Weapons console has end game cancer and you desperatly need a cure for it, but I think it also has mid game anemia and I'm trying to offer some medicine which might help dampen the pain it suffers.
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