The Current Balance of Ability Types

Any suggestions or ideas regarding cruiser command
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WhyteDragon
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The Current Balance of Ability Types

Post by WhyteDragon »

I'm expanding off another topic since this is starting to go in a very different direction.
Degra wrote:I'm not sure anymore whether it was the right thing to do with the wraith to reduce relative damage progression via upgrades.
It seems to me that the only way to reverse the current process is by nerfing the wraith's default values, but improving gain via upgrades.
Wraith deceleration upgrade seems like a good way to make it possible to catch miners late-game again, as it's only worth when you don't deplete your energy in the process, meaning you should have at least vessel energy 3 by then.
Just make it cost kerm, so people won't get it early game so much.
I think the issue is more that the relative distance from a miner to a BC in the late game is always incredibly small. Normally you have to 'overextend' yourself to expand your economy in RTS games, making it an obvious vulnerable spot to strike at first. However... this is obviously not the case for a game like Cruiser Command where your base is mobile and you gain incredible movement speed boosters (in order to facilitate end game fluidity) to most small ships.

The reason that miners are harder to kill late game isn't because of stats, but because it's incredibly easy to simply turbo boost back your BC and spend only a second or two afterwards simply waltzing over to repair. The relative distance gets smaller due to speed upgrades and abilities that facilitate movement.

AKA as the game goes on, you eliminate every miner weakness in terms of movement typically. If you want to make miners more vulnerable late game, you need a method of eliminating that absolute advantage -- an upgrade that completely disables Turbo Boost until a miner docks and relaunches, tethers, something that will dampen movement for the miner.

And with this in mind, I'd like to finally get to the real point: nearly every ability in cruiser command focuses entirely upon 'making your own ships more effective.' You can count the number of abilities that impede your opponents with your hands -- tractor beam, wraith EMP, destroyer energy leech, wraith energy leech, wasp missiles and sabertooth missiles would be the ones of real note.

The reason I don't include things like infiltration is because infiltration in itself does not impede the enemy team, but rather it's the way the player uses infiltration that impedes the team. It would be like saying 'small ship collision impedes the enemy team because it lowers the enemy small ship's movement.' It's like saying 'increased damage impedes the enemy team by forcing them to expend more shields.' It does not do anything to address scaling -- it only further increases the peak at which the scales reach.

In short, Cruiser Command is a very Buff heavy game, with few Debuffs. Part of me finds this amusing because one of the biggest debuffs in the game, Destroyer's Energy Leech, is the way to break stalemates in current team battles. It's an effective 'negative energy production' aspect so long as you continue to hit. It's an ability that effective addresses the issue of energy production scaling into the late game.

I don't mean to say that we should start pumping out 'debuffs' en-mass. What I mean to say is that certain scaling issues that come with the late game can probably be more easily addressed through the addition of such debuffs rather than constantly attempting to adjust the scaling of each ship.
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Re: The Current Balance of Ability Types

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I agree with this. I think buffs have gotten too far carried away though.

TBH, I've always felt that most of the small ship upgrades cheapen the depth of dogfights. Energy management for the miner is a big deal... until energy upgrades make it literally impossible to run out of energy. Hull upgrades cheapen the impact of damage and make fights harder to finish, to the point where AI miners can reliably escape from any attack. Weapon and engine upgrades make it so that dogfights are heavily weighted towards the team with the fastest upgrader (which feels like a cheap way to win fights IMO).

IMO, the early game is golden, before upgrades come out. That only lasts about 2 minutes.

Late game, half the ships are obsolete and the BC's defenses have scaled so high that they can't be penetrated without destroyers.
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Re: The Current Balance of Ability Types

Post by Red-Rocket »

Allowing light missiles on small ships can change that, 600 damage up front (assuming you even land the missiles because they are slow and have no tracking) can change the late game to faster and more deadly engagements.

EDIT: Although it should most likely be an upgrade because it would be to devastating early game (something like start with 0, cheap 1 and 2 to be allowed on small ships then 4 and 6 then something like 10 for fun for destroyers) Miners and chompers should not be able to take missiles (or 1 for bare minimum warning shot defense suff or trolling =D )
Oh its not orders I'm giving, but rather... "aggressive suggestions".
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Re: The Current Balance of Ability Types

Post by WhyteDragon »

Red-Rocket wrote:Allowing light missiles on small ships can change that, 600 damage up front (assuming you even land the missiles because they are slow and have no tracking) can change the late game to faster and more deadly engagements.

EDIT: Although it should most likely be an upgrade because it would be to devastating early game (something like start with 0, cheap 1 and 2 to be allowed on small ships then 4 and 6 then something like 10 for fun for destroyers) Miners and chompers should not be able to take missiles (or 1 for bare minimum warning shot defense suff or trolling =D )
... frankly speaking, it would not. Small ship missiles would be cool, but they won't fix the issues of scaling. You're only tossing more late game scaling into the mix while will require further buffs to other small ships in order to balance it out and... well, eventually it will simply get to abhorrent level.

"More ways to gain damage, speed, health, and energy" is not going to solve the issue -- it's only going to further add to the current problem. Methods of taking away damage, speed, health, and energy are a far more viable solution in my opinion.
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Re: The Current Balance of Ability Types

Post by Red-Rocket »

Hum, then im not sure what your trying to address, do you want debuffs like better wraith emp? or take out thruster upgrades because ships get back to the BC so fast and less upgrades overall?

Im more for many upgrades although i think a Tier system might need to be implemented if we want to address late game if late game balance is what you are going for, just a thought
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Re: The Current Balance of Ability Types

Post by DumbMarine »

Red-Rocket wrote:Allowing light missiles on small ships can change that, 600 damage up front (assuming you even land the missiles because they are slow and have no tracking) can change the late game to faster and more deadly engagements.

EDIT: Although it should most likely be an upgrade because it would be to devastating early game (something like start with 0, cheap 1 and 2 to be allowed on small ships then 4 and 6 then something like 10 for fun for destroyers) Miners and chompers should not be able to take missiles (or 1 for bare minimum warning shot defense suff or trolling =D )
This is literally the more of the same problem I'm talking about. Fights would become whoever upgrades "small ship missiles" first.

I think the majority of fights shouldn't be decided by the person at the upgrade console, they should be decided by the pilots.
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Re: The Current Balance of Ability Types

Post by Red-Rocket »

Are you saying we should put a time on the upgrades console to access like 5m before access? or an upfront purchase like 50/50/50/0 with 30s in order to get access to the console?
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Re: The Current Balance of Ability Types

Post by DumbMarine »

I don't think that's the answer. The reason is the same reason I don't think just flat out removing the upgrades is good either (except for vessel energy upgrades, which eliminates the importance of power management for miners, wraiths, and corvettes). Good piloting is an important part of CC, but I think good strategy should be a part of it as well.

WhyteDragon touched on this, mentioning economy and not needing to overextend yourself to keep it going.

A game I like to compare CC to is Allegiance, since they're sorta the same genre. Upgrades are a big deal in Allegiance, probably even a bigger deal, because at the end of each tech tree are options that start to chew on the game mechanics. Imagine if, instead of infiltrators allowing you to board the enemy BC, infiltrators instead mind controlled the enemy BC at close range. It sounds super ridiculous. It is super ridiculous. In Alleg they're called heavy troop transports, and when both teams have them ownership of things gets very wibbly wobbly.

If that's not ridiculous enough, the best capital ship has the equivalent of 4 rapid fire yamato cannons for point defense (its main gun is even beefier).

Yet, in high level games of Alleg, you often only see 20% of the tech tree get researched by the end of the game, and it doesn't go that deep. Most of the money is instead spent on establishing map control, because you need to be constantly attacking, constantly expanding, in order to keep your economy going. Money is generally concentrated in the center of the map, and either you spend half your money on expansion (and the other half on ships) or your miners will have to overextend in order to keep bringing in cash.

By the time you have the cash to spend on the tech tree, you've already map controlled your opponent into a box, and the game's over. Crazy tech only happens when both teams are evenly matched, and it becomes a gamble, because you sacrifice expanding to afford that tech, and if it doesn't pay off you basically get boxed up and surgically picked apart.

So, from that, the small ship upgrades in CC should be more of a gamble, there should be a way to counterplay them.
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