Increased marine combat idea

[Emster]

I have an idea to make the game a bit more interesting, what if we were to add a building, like a mining station in the center of the map that gives a constant steady income. I know this sort of idea has been proposed before, but this is a bit different. The station would be big enough so that the BC could not cover each of the 4 entrances to the station, only 1 or 2 at a time. This would provide opportunities for a marine battle inside of the station that would be hard for the enemy to protect with ships. Whichever team currently has the center of the station would get the mineral bonus (maybe even possible to temporarily change what mineral you get). It wouldn't be a massive bonus, but enough to help give a little extra boost to one of the teams. It would also be cool to add a different variety of marine weapons to go along with this and it would probably be good if the station was inaccessible in the beginning of the game and to have a gamemode without the station. This would provide a team that is behind in the game a way to come back that isn't determined by ship upgrades.

What do you guys think?

[Dreadnought]

Right now its boring with RTS like fighting, which does not work with 1 character. Either add more weapons and interesting things like grenades or go crazy with boarding like in warcraft 3 with projectiles that are dodgeable (dont need mana mechanic though)

[slapshot]

even if the BC can't directly cover all the entrances, it's presence would allow allied ships to dock/re-launch fast and cover the other entrances - and when the other BC comes, it will force an engagement, almost like kerm

I also find it hard to envision how a BC can't cover at-least 3/4 entrances at any given time

[WhyteDragon]

I already posted my thoughts on this in Dreadnought's suggestion.

CC has too many concepts geared more towards BC/Team mobility. And it should keep pushing that way in my opinion. And in that sense, this sort of 'construct' is a step backwards.

[Dreadnought]

I already posted my thoughts on this in Dreadnought's suggestion.

CC has too many concepts geared more towards BC/Team mobility. And it should keep pushing that way in my opinion. And in that sense, this sort of 'construct' is a step backwards.

Still, marine vs marine combat could change. In warcraft 3 it was quite exciting and had alot of customization but in SC2 basically its 2 marines just sitting still shooting at eachother until one realizes he is loosing and runs away. =P

[WhyteDragon]

I already posted my thoughts on this in Dreadnought's suggestion.

CC has too many concepts geared more towards BC/Team mobility. And it should keep pushing that way in my opinion. And in that sense, this sort of 'construct' is a step backwards.

Still, marine vs marine combat could change. In warcraft 3 it was quite exciting and had alot of customization but in SC2 basically its 2 marines just sitting still shooting at eachother until one realizes he is loosing and runs away. =P

We could also add super giant flashy doomsday moon laser death cannons that can only be used upon reaching 9001 kermiculite and is a one hit killing move.

Would be pretty pointless, effectively a waste of time to create due to its effective uses in the game, and serve as little more than a means of silly glorification, but we could.

The only reason for these items, at the moment, would be infiltration. And that's an incredibly small niche to draw upon.

There's practically no point in establishing all of these extra effects if that's all it's going to be for. If there was more hostile activity on the battlecruiser in which such items would be useful, and moreover used with fair frequency such that they wouldn't just be gimmicks, that's a different story.

But that is not the case.

[Dreadnought]

We could also add super giant flashy doomsday moon laser death cannons that can only be used upon reaching 9001 kermiculite and is a one hit killing move.

Would be pretty pointless, effectively a waste of time to create due to its effective uses in the game, and serve as little more than a means of silly glorification, but we could.

Its not over the top like how you are making it out to be, it just adds more dynamic gameplay.

The only reason for these items, at the moment, would be infiltration. And that's an incredibly small niche to draw upon.

There's practically no point in establishing all of these extra effects if that's all it's going to be for. If there was more hostile activity on the battlecruiser in which such items would be useful, and moreover used with fair frequency such that they wouldn't just be gimmicks, that's a different story.

The reason infiltration isnt used alot is because it is hard to pull off and very, very condoned/supressed by veteran players if a new player requests/trys to infiltrate.

Creating these sort of "open-ended" projectiles that can be skill-shot and dodged by opponents is not all that hard to make. Its already in the game. For example: Wraiths fire these projectiles, they can be dodged of course, and is not instant like the current marines gun play or subjugators AOE attack (though the difference would be you would be clicking where to fire the projectile, instead of facing the character in that direction). Missiles, Lasers, Kinetics, corvette barrage, destroyer shots...ect....clearly Erik understands how to do them, and even I was able to make a few basic attacks like this a few years back (dont ask me how, i have forgotten ,_, but the point is, even i could do it.)

It isnt (shouldnt) be that hard to make, and simply arguing that we shouldnt develop a part of the game because not many players use it is not great, it means we should focus harder on that area and make it more accessable and exciting.
Anyone use subjugators these days? We still should add more to the subjugator because its still apart of the game, and COULD use improvements, like infiltration, which can be expanded on in the future.
Having a better base for it will help continue further development of subugators and delve into more specific and as you say those "over the top" things that require 9002 kermiculite.

[WhyteDragon]

Alright, let me say this fast. If this was a mechanic utilized for one off items like grenades, I could see it. However, from what I understand you're pushing for this as the main method of performing a basic case of 'shooting your weapon.'

I'm going to be flat out frank, and since this is Dreadnought I have to put on my mean face, I think that's completely pants on head retarded. Let me go through why.

Its not over the top like how you are making it out to be, it just adds more dynamic gameplay.

I'm using dramatization in order to make a point. And no, it does not necessarily -- that's like saying adding a piloting system that requires you to plug in coordinates in order to fly your small ship adds dynamic gameplay.

The gameplay does not become more 'dynamic.' It requires extra steps and becomes convoluted. The level of complexity involved into a particular set of actions should be designed relative to the amount of attention given to it in a game. Why should you have to master this new point and click firing system if you're nearly never going to use it? Why should you want to use a complex system if the payout is ultimately of little consequence?

The current point of utilizing a marine on a battlecruiser is moving around in order to execute particular sorts of actions, such as stealing, dropping C4, and drawing attention away from others. Being able to deal damage is a supplement to this concept since the ability to 'kill' is necessary to an extent. I do admit that if it was effectively a simple scheme then it would be a different story, however, I'll get to that in just a moment...

You're falling back upon the fallacy that in theory, infinite content is best. That is not the case.

The reason infiltration isnt used alot is because it is hard to pull off and very, very condoned/supressed by veteran players if a new player requests/trys to infiltrate.

Then why are you using it as an excuse to add in more mechanics that will only further complicate it and further push veterans from allowing newer players to perform it?

Creating these sort of "open-ended" projectiles that can be skill-shot and dodged by opponents is not all that hard to make. Its already in the game. For example: Wraiths fire these projectiles, they can be dodged of course, and is not instant like the current marines gun play or subjugators AOE attack (though the difference would be you would be clicking where to fire the projectile, instead of facing the character in that direction). Missiles, Lasers, Kinetics, corvette barrage, destroyer shots...ect....clearly Erik understands how to do them, and even I was able to make a few basic attacks like this a few years back (dont ask me how, i have forgotten ,_, but the point is, even i could do it.)

Alright, so back to the issue. Once again, also not true. One of the reasons the wraith style of open ended projectiles is in that, while the necessity for movement is indeed linked to the same key, the ability to aim is not linked to the same key.

You press right and left click in order to direct your wraith.
You press F in order to fire the plasma cannon.

If we ignore throttle since it will remain somewhat constant, these are two independent features in terms of control scheme. However, point and click firing suddenly changes it to;

You press right and left click in order to direct your marine.
You press left and right click in order to fire your gun.

This is not a good control scheme. Can you even considered what this will look like when trying to spam it out? When trying to kite people around as, guess what, the ONLY mechanic in the game that would even PROMOTE this sort of combat requires you to do. Even if you bother to consider adding in a longer term cooldown, it's a conflicting control scheme that works awkwardly due to the simple scenarios it's put it.

It isnt (shouldnt) be that hard to make, and simply arguing that we shouldn't develop a part of the game because not many players use it is not great, it means we should focus harder on that area and make it more accessible and exciting.

You wanted a reason? There, I put one above. As you often do, you're gravely mistaking the concept of development as 'adding lots of features.' Dread, I seriously hope that one day you'll eventually begin to realize that unnecessary features take away from a game.

Anyone use subjugators these days? We still should add more to the subjugator because its still apart of the game, and COULD use improvements, like infiltration, which can be expanded on in the future.

I do feel as if the subjugator has uses, but maybe you are right on that front. However, I frankly think that you should be looking at the ability set of the subjugator first -- it has several abilities that, on paper, could be considered good. You should tell us what you think is wrong with those abilities and how to fix then, rather than overloading it with more stuff that could just further end up cluttering the subjugator with extra abilities that never get used.

Having a better base for it will help continue further development of subugators and delve into more specific and as you say those "over the top" things that require 9002 kermiculite.

... Dread, I sincerely hope you aren't actually looking for those sorts of things to be made.
That's just wrong dude.
That's just wrong.

[Dreadnought]

You and I interpret "Fun" very differently.

I prefer the combat system in warcraft 3 over starcraft 2, and its not hard to use. (the hotkey to fire the weapon is A btw)

[WhyteDragon]

You and I interpret "Fun" very differently.

I prefer the combat system in warcraft 3 over starcraft 2, and its not hard to use. (the hotkey to fire the weapon is A btw)

The speed of marines is notably fast, and furthermore can be further boosted by upgrades and by sprinting. Moreover, the size of the marine is generally small, which makes targeting in such a manner difficult and frustrating. This is also before considering other factors like the varying available models which wield different sizes while maintaining the same hit boxes.

The alternative does exist to changing the general scale of everything, whether it be in speed, hit box size, or whatever, but this would also most likely require a fair degree of remodeling in terms of the cruiser deck design in order to compensate for the larger hit due to the nature of debris, and when dealing with the issue of different speeds despite the large nature of the deck.

SC2 isn't WC3. I don't get why we need to unnecessarily complicate something that, at the moment, does not particularly benefit from being so.

I don't want to have to deal with the frustrating, annoying issue of latency while trying to hit a tiny marine while they're dashing about at incredible speeds. It was annoying as hell in WC3, and I don't see why it would be any less annoying in SC2 when unit sizes are generally further scaled down by comparison.

Leave the concept for things like consumable items. Because it's not something spammed out in high frequency, it becomes something players can pay larger attention to and, since it in theory should have a higher pay out, it will actually feel satisfying to see a result relative to the value of the effort put into it.