The Racist Shields Thread

[Siretu]

I know Siretu seems to hate submenus, so limiting them is probably a more favorable option.

I feel like you guys get these ideas of things I hate I don't hate submenus, I just think they can be very bad in certain situations. For example, adding a submenu to a wraith is something I am very much against, since you don't want extra button clicks when you're fighting.

Having submenus in consoles is fine, as long as it's not stuff that you will need to be able to use quickly.

As for the shield debate:

As mentioned already, it would require re-balancing shields and weapons again, to a great extent. This is a big negative to me. I see the potential point of adding more defensive options, but so far all of the suggestions have felt unattractive. Also, the more you can scale down your suggestion to decrease the need for massive feature implementations, the better.

Parts to improve:
* Good ideas for shield types. I don't like the initial ones, mostly for reasons mentioned by whyte. I'd prefer something with advantages and disadvantages. I'd prefer something pretty simple that doesn't just make it a numbers game.
* Concrete idea for implementation (Simple upgrades and changeable from science?)
* Solid idea of how the interaction between the shields work. Are you supposed to change it in combat, if so, what's the drawback or is it just instant? Do you just get one shield per game and upgrade it to max? Is it scoutable? What happens if you went full kinetics and the enemy has the kinetics shield? Insta-lose?

[WhyteDragon]

Also, I'm with you on what you said about it just being countering based on numbers, but, looking at this from a new player's perspective the extra perks like extending shields to nearby small ships might be confusing - "Why did I have a shield earlier and suddenly I don't anymore?" , "How did that ship get a shield as I was about to kill it?" , "Why did I have a shield last game near the BC but not this time?" , etc. The second set adds more depth, but the first is more straightforward to new players. And keeping new players in CC is our biggest problem. I suppose as long as the mechanics are simple the second set would still be nearly as straightforward as the first.

I feel like you're actually twisting the issue -- have you considered the converse situation of trying to communicate numeric advantages?

I feel as if the more invisible things, such as numbers, are harder to figure out on your own simply because it's hard to track. For a lot of non-numeric upgrades, there's typically some sense of visual feedback that helps you understand it -- I.E. the shield expanding from the BC might communicate a 'safe area.'

But for numbers, by contrast, 'oh, his lasers are stronger than mine?' or 'what does a slightly tinted red laser mean? Is that good or bad' ends up being a viable issue. It's harder to communicate 'numeric advantages' easily unless you have prior experience because, by all means, nothing is overly different in terms of visual. If someone has an advantage over you because, say, they have a new weapon on their ship, that's easy to understand -- why? It's expanding upon what already exists. It's something they have not already seen. And while you may argue that, in theory, 'if we allow weapons different tints it'll be communicated in a similar way' well, no -- not really. Because the fact of the matter is that a color only communicates that it has changed, but not in what way. However, the introduction of a new projectile weapon, a new method of moving, a sudden creation of an object in space, these are all different, and often can be observed as unique entities -- and that makes understanding them easier, since typically rather than carrying 'additional rule sets,' you can simply look at it from its base.

...

In regards to the parts to improve for the thread...

Will think about it. I think a nice way to get around the issue of shield balancing may be to offer more 'utility-like' components around it. Basically, rather than adding defensive power ups, things like a shield that pushes nearby objects away as a reverse gravity field, a shield that when you switch to it, grants you a short term cloaking but is weaker than normal shields once you come out of it...

Things like this. Creating mechanics to play around rather than bonuses. I'll see if I can come up with some more in the future.

[Dreadnought]

Good ideas for shield types. I don't like the initial ones

* Solid idea of how the interaction between the shields work. Are you supposed to change it in combat, if so, what's the drawback or is it just instant? Do you just get one shield per game and upgrade it to max? Is it scoutable? What happens if you went full kinetics and the enemy has the kinetics shield? Insta-lose?

Alright, ill throw in my ideas on it. Each shield is a one time purchase, you can purchase multiple or all the shields. At SCIENCE console you can switch between any shield, once you switch to a new shield, the global cooldown for all shields starts for 15 seconds. Its scoutable in the fact if you hit the enemy shield it will show the color of the shield, so a wraith can nail it and take down the color it displays. As for disadvantages in switching between shields in combat...ill put that down to the next topic...

I'd prefer something with advantages and disadvantages. I'd prefer something pretty simple that doesn't just make it a numbers game.

The problem with adding disadvantages directly to upgrades is that it simply has never been done before (besides those upgrades later on using cost/power drain/core stability) and it could have problems with people simply not wanting to use shields at all, like say 25% bonus against kinetics for whatever reason and -25% disadvantage against lasers. Why would i buy the shield if the opponent can quickly switch between lasers and kinetics (literally 1 second) and the basic blue shield is simply better because there is no risk? I think the disadvantage would be in switching in between shields, not the shields themselves, first you would have to buy more then 1 shield to switch between (requiring more resources which could be considered a disadvantage) then the manpower for the switch (the science console is mostly used by the AI, and i would rather not let the AI handle switching shields), even though it could just be a quick tap on the console, its still drawing attention away from another job.

I dont really want to add numbers disadvantages right now like power drain/core stability or shields temp. offline quite yet and see if we need to add it later.

I doubt that a full kinetics team would insta loose against something like yellow shields, keep in mind the yellow shields does not affect any sort of other damage source like broadsides or missiles, and like all current shield ideas its not ass effective when its below 50%, so you can burst shields below 50% with yamato/missiles/destroyers and broadsides then wail on the enemy BC with kinetics as their advantage isnt as effective.

EDIT: Im not specifically listing legendary shields, I still want them and think they are a good thing. Let that battle rage forth on skype, and keep the basic implementation of shields here >.O

[DinoChicken]

I wouldn't mind having more ideas centered around defense, I feel there is little that you can do in defending other then how much power you can put in shields and pressing shield boost every now and then (there is iron curtain, but the AI usually uses it, and it has a minute cool-down) Warp-Jumps can be quite fun but ultimately do little to mitigate enemy fire. I think there needs to something more impactful and the...racist shields is an interesting approach.

[Puppetbones]

@WhyteDragon:

Tell me which is easier to communicate to a new player:

"There are shield types that reduce incoming damage from specific weapon types, ie, lasers, kinetics, etc."

-or-

Explaining 4 different shield types that have 3 effects each. A couple of paragraphs; something around the length of the Original Post. Sure, they can read tooltips in the upgrades console if they have time, and they can see visual changes, but even then it's still a lot to take in and remember.

But, as I said before, if the mechanics are kept simple -- like say, 3 shield types with 1 mechanic each, then both are easy for new players to pick up. And in that case, I would be all for mechanics rather than just numbers. It just worried me that this would be something around the complexity level of what Dreadnought suggested (but obviously not silly mechanics).


And one seemingly contradiction I'm confused on:

... I also kind of agree with everyone else that perhaps Science may be a better place for it if we do aim for it. And there's a couple of reasons for this;

1) Lack of science console relevance in combat. This would ameliorate that issue.
...
4) This would create interactivity between consoles.

...but then you said:

Honestly, not 100% sure on how to handle switching. However, I'm fairly certain I don't like the idea of switching through upgrading. And there are a few reasons for that;
1) Another console that then effectively needs to be manned in combat. This sounds frustrating.

Wouldn't putting it on Science also mean another console that needs to be manned in combat? And if you want interactivity between consoles, wouldn't putting it on upgrades also work? I think maybe what you're saying is having required parts of the shield mechanic being on upgrades, science, and power is bad? Just 2 would be better?

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@Dreadnought:

Each shield is a one time purchase, you can purchase multiple or all the shields. At SCIENCE console you can switch between any shield

Not a bad approach. I think I like it better than my approach for reasons WhyteDragon has already said.

once you switch to a new shield, the global cooldown for all shields starts for 15 seconds.

That's a very short commitment. I was thinking something along the lines of 2-5 minutes. That way the opposing team would have time to alter their strategy, perhaps even make some purchases to counter.

Its scoutable in the fact if you hit the enemy shield it will show the color of the shield, so a wraith can nail it and take down the color it displays

And what's the point of scouting if they can switch shields in 15 seconds?...and even less if the cooldown has already been underway for a few seconds...

I suppose you're thinking the resource cost would be high, which in that case, they likely have just 1 shield and this would make sense. (Late game maybe 2, but both would likely be scouted)

and like all current shield ideas its not ass effective when its below 50%

I actually laughed at the typo...At this point I might as well forget about ever maturing...it doesn't look like it's gonna happen.

[slapshot]

rather than a "switch" I think I would go with what shield boost currently is: you gain the buff for say 60 seconds or so, can't switch during that time, and in 60 seconds if you want the buff you have to activate it again - that way if a stray wraith shot grazes you, unless your science was actively using the shields (and they should cost energy, so that isn't a great idea to spam it 24x7), it will just be the default shield

[WhyteDragon]

@WhyteDragon:

Tell me which is easier to communicate to a new player:

"There are shield types that reduce incoming damage from specific weapon types, ie, lasers, kinetics, etc."

-or-

Explaining 4 different shield types that have 3 effects each. A couple of paragraphs; something around the length of the Original Post. Sure, they can read tooltips in the upgrades console if they have time, and they can see visual changes, but even then it's still a lot to take in and remember.

Why does it have to be outright explained to players?

Why can't, by observing the game and seeing an enlarged shields by example, they figure it out themselves that such a thing exists?

Why can't mechanics that are non-numeric be explained in a short period of time? I.E.

Shield generates a pushing force against nearby objects.
Or
Shield expands to protect nearby small ships.

That isn't long. And takes just as much effort to outright say 'this shield takes 20% reduced damage from this other thing.'

By contrast, a numeric upgrade can't really communicate this because the difference between 14/16 damage isn't always easy to point out if you're not blatantly paying attention for it. Even if you do something like color, as I previously said, a color doesn't communicate as much.

And one seemingly contradiction I'm confused on:

... I also kind of agree with everyone else that perhaps Science may be a better place for it if we do aim for it. And there's a couple of reasons for this;

1) Lack of science console relevance in combat. This would ameliorate that issue.
...
4) This would create interactivity between consoles.

...but then you said:

Honestly, not 100% sure on how to handle switching. However, I'm fairly certain I don't like the idea of switching through upgrading. And there are a few reasons for that;
1) Another console that then effectively needs to be manned in combat. This sounds frustrating.

Wouldn't putting it on Science also mean another console that needs to be manned in combat? And if you want interactivity between consoles, wouldn't putting it on upgrades also work? I think maybe what you're saying is having required parts of the shield mechanic being on upgrades, science, and power is bad? Just 2 would be better?

Because science is already a part of combat.

It has core purging, yamato loading, and iron curtaining -- an ability comparable to shield boosting to begin with. And, though I'd find this to be a more minor point, you could technically argue that radar pings help you track their team in combat.

And, moreover, there are already existing combat interactions between science and the other combat consoles -- as previously declared.

Upgrades does not. The only ways it does are comparable to how construction has an interaction with weapons in that it makes missiles for you to load. Not really the same sort of concept.

So basically, you'd be shifting it from the already existing 4 consoles to 5 in combat.

[Puppetbones]

Why does it have to be outright explained to players?

Why can't, by observing the game and seeing an enlarged shields by example, they figure it out themselves that such a thing exists?

...and figure out 10-12 different types, and somehow linking them all to shield type upgrades? With numerical upgrades I can explain all of them in one quick sentence.

Why can't mechanics that are non-numeric be explained in a short period of time? I.E.

Shield generates a pushing force against nearby objects.
Or
Shield expands to protect nearby small ships.

...and explain the other 10 or so mechanics and you got an explanation as long as the Original Post.

[it should be on science] Because science is already a part of combat.

...and science is manned by an AI. Now putting shield switching on science would require a human to man it; as people have already said they would not want an AI doing the shield switching. Upgrades is sometimes used in combat, so putting it there would not necessarily add another console needed in combat, and putting it (all) on power would certainly not add another console needed in combat. But I suppose since there is a short distance between upgrades and science, one person could go back and forth and effectively man both.

And also earlier you said:

1) Lack of science console relevance in combat.

So is Science part of combat or is it not?

[Siretu]

So is Science part of combat or is it not?

I think the idea is that we _want_ science to be a part of combat. I don't want a person sitting on upgrades, solely for the purchase of shields.

Science has some combat relevant stuff on it, but not enough. The way to fix this is not to take new relevant mechanics and add them to non-combat consoles. That makes the issue worse and means we end up with several semi-combat consoles.

[WhyteDragon]

In favor of avoiding another endless back and forth argument...

I think the idea is that we _want_ science to be a part of combat. I don't want a person sitting on upgrades, solely for the purchase of shields.

Science has some combat relevant stuff on it, but not enough. The way to fix this is not to take new relevant mechanics and add them to non-combat consoles. That makes the issue worse and means we end up with several semi-combat consoles.

In essence, this.