Infiltration Changes

[Squid]

Right now, it feels like infiltration has some problems.
Currently, it is powerful versus new players, but ultimately fails versus competitive players.
The main root of these problems is the ARC12 Rifle and the T3 Utility upgrade.
The ARC12 rifle is extremely powerful, and its use is skewed against boarding. I don't want to come across as selfish and wanting the Infiltrator to be extremely powerful, but the ARC12 severely disrupts the game balance.
Right now, the ARC12 rifle is superior to the C14 Gauss rifle in pretty much every way- except damage per second. And you would not guess that from its price tag.
5 15
The main reason why the ARC12 rifle is so powerful is because of its ability to kite and do burst damage. The reason this works so well against enemy infiltrators is because you have vision of the entire map and have allies.
This is a problem because you cannot really anticipate where the enemy is, and once they prod you with electricity, you cannot chase them and outdamage them with the C14 Gauss. So you have to play the same game with them- the ARC12 rifle. But you can't do that- because there are now two people attacking you with the ARC12 rifle.
And even though some might say that you should just run around while healing, just one encounter with someone with an ARC12 rifle, with its 7.5 range (which is a LOT), will deal 22 damage, disrupt the First Aid ability, and it doesn't even take a second. And you cannot avoid it- because you don't know where they are.
It is really hard to stress how powerful the ARC12 rifle is in words, but you will just have to take my word for it.
So how do we solve this?
Well, I have thought of some ideas.
1. ARC12 Rifle Charge Time
Basically, make the ARC12 rifle have a charge-up time, where you are in firing range of an enemy and it takes 2 weapon speed time (idk how that converts to seconds) while decreasing the normal weapon speed of the ARC12 rifle by 2 weapon speed units.
2. Add Personnel Shield Generator
Sits in the Armor slot. Gives the marine 10 shield. Recharges fairly quickly when out of combat. Basically, the idea of this is that it nullifies occasional ARC12 shots. Will still be weak against the C14 Gauss. I still don't know if the shield being attacked should stop First Aid or not.
Another main problem is that the deciding factor on whether or not you can really infiltrate is the Utility T3 upgrade, due to its movement speed bonus.
This is a problem because it is an ESSENTIAL upgrade. If the enemy has Utility 3 and you do not, you are bound to die, because you are too slow to run from the crew and cannot heal up.
Whereas if you DO have utility 3 and the enemy does not, you will be ultimately unstoppable.
It is fairly lame in that regard, because it is one of those scenarios where an enemy doing ___ forces you do do exactly what they did, and that should never be the case, as that becomes the meta and all games are bland and the exact same with no variety.
-End rant-

[slapshot]

Isn't that the entire point as far as how it should be used? poke and run away?

although I do think it might be interesting to lower it's range down to the same as the C14, then poking would require a lot more skill to pull off (1v1 it would still win with proper use, but it would be more difficult)

the real question is how do you want to nerf it? increase it's price? lower it's damage? hard to answer the poll without that

also, I think that this is such a low-frequency event (infiltration to start with is a rare occurrence, and even then it's usually a mineral swipe, actual harassment is less common) that it's way down on the list of priorities..

[WhyteDragon]

... to be honest, I feel as if this topic is poking at the wrong issue.

Let me first preface this in saying that I think something could be gained from changing up the weapons a little bit. But only small tweaks.

Truthfully, both the arc and gauss have pros and cons. The gauss boasts superior DPS at the cost of lower range and a forced higher firing rate, which consumes 'move time.' It is impossible to use it to kite. The arc rifle has lower DPS but has a higher range and superior instantaneous damage output.

A while back, the gauss rifle was actually the superior weapon to use as an infiltrator and defender. In fact, very little has changed about infiltration or the marine weapons since then. The main difference is the shift in the turrets. But now, as a standard choice, the arc rifle is far more accepted. The arc rifle outranges the turrets, but that's hardly the reason it's being boasted over at the moment.

The only thing that's changed since then is infiltrator mentality.

Back then, infiltrators came charging in with C4 with the intention of locking down key stations on the battlecruiser. It was get in as sneakily as possible and take out the enemy stations. This required 0 kiting -- in fact, it required the players to defend their ground and protect their C4. Hence, the gauss was used by the infiltrator. And, naturally, since the infiltrator didn't run, the defenders used the gauss rifle for its superior DPS and for the fact that they too didn't want to kite -- they wanted the C4 gone.

Now very few people care about C4 in infiltration. It's all about running around and poking and being a nuisance. Naturally, this means that the arc rifle is going to be more useful since it fits to the playstyle of the infiltrator. And ironically, it works even better as a counter to that playstyle for the defending team.

In reality, the range of the arc rifle probably is a little excessive. And the attack speed of the gauss rifle should probably be slowed down a little in exchange for larger damage output. But condemning a weapon for being good against a play style that it was designed to be good against feels... a little regressive.

Also, I would calling Utility 3 an essential upgrade is exaggerated. Sure, it lets you do better as an infiltrator (and only as one particular playstyle for it), but it's giving up incredibly weapon and tractor beam efficiency and super cheap destroyer spams.

... but then again, I know there's been general discussion about infiltration as a whole probably needing an overhaul. So I'm not going to go deeper into all of this than that.

[Squid]

The only thing that's changed since then is infiltrator mentality.

Back then, infiltrators came charging in with C4 with the intention of locking down key stations on the battlecruiser. It was get in as sneakily as possible and take out the enemy stations. This required 0 kiting -- in fact, it required the players to defend their ground and protect their C4. Hence, the gauss was used by the infiltrator. And, naturally, since the infiltrator didn't run, the defenders used the gauss rifle for its superior DPS and for the fact that they too didn't want to kite -- they wanted the C4 gone.

The one problem I see with this is that C-4 is too weak.
The idea behind what you are trying to say is that the Gauss was strong because it had DPS- so that you could defend C4.
The problem is is that C-4 can be targeted regardless if you are guarding it or not.
The fact that C-4 only has 30 HP (i think) and can be easily dispatched makes it useless to have to guard. C-4 can be killed before a defender could be killed- so all you have to do is target the C-4 and there is nothing the Infiltrator can do. This pretty much makes the C14 Gauss pointless, according to what you say.
The root of this problem is the C-4's weakness nearly forces infiltrator playstyle/mindset to go to the kiting way, enforcing the T3 Utility, nanodoc gloves, and ARC12 rifle, with a bland kiting marine combat system.
And as i said before, that makes infiltrators weak.
Now that i think about it- this has a fairly simple/not simple fix.
Make damage to the C4 redirect to the Infiltrator when it is in a 3 range of C4.
I can see problems with this, but i think we should see how this turns out.
also i love how everyone voted that i suck
oh yeah and nerf arc12 lol

[WhyteDragon]

Yeah, one piece of C4 can get shredded fairly quickly. It also relies on you having gotten the jump on the enemy team -- which, it being infiltration and all, seems reasonable -- but the strategy is possible in the current meta so long as you're using more than one stick. It has been done.

I disagree in saying you're 'forced' to do it.

[Squid]

I think you get what im trying to say- but it feels like it has not been stressed enough.
Carrying around more than one C-4 to bomb a single target does work, but it is not practical. At all.
Each C-4 has 25 life- which is not a lot. A marine has 100 life. Lets consider this scenario:
The infiltrator, after having destroyed the Turrets leading to the Power Console, plants down a C-4. The defenders, noticing the attack, move to attack the Infiltrator and the C-4. The defenders target the C-4 first, knowing it has 25 life and will be dispatched easily. The defenders easily disarm the C-4, leaving the Infiltrator having done nothing but distract the crew for about 6-10 seconds. This raid was fairly useless, considering 30 Pyromanite was wasted, for 10 seconds of distraction.
Okay, you say; bring more than one C-4!
So now, the infiltrator is planting TWO c-4. The Infiltrator plants both C-4 on the same spot (which, if they are untouched, only one will take effect because C-4 kills other C-4). The defending crew moves to disarm the C-4. The crewmember attacking the C-4 kills both easily, as if both the Infiltrator and the Crew are using the C-14 Gauss (because it has the most DPS), the defending crew can still disarm both C-4 without dying. Two C-4 combined have 50 HP, the marine has 100 (plus possible Nanodoc gloves). This time, 60 pyromanite was wasted, for about 13 seconds of distraction, and scaring off one crewmember so that they have to heal (being left at 50 health, which isnt very serious anyways). In my opinion, that is still completely pointless.
Let's try 3 C-4. However, the same scenario happens. One crewmember disables the C-4, runs off, heals, and has distracted ONE crew member for about 16-18 seconds. All this for 90 pyromanite.
To successfuly have ONE c-4's worth, you would have to bring 4 C-4. That is the maximum I bring in every Infiltrator raid!
Not to mention- that only works some of the time. If the defender gets the first shot, or is wearing Nanodoc gloves, you will have to use 5-6 C-4, practically filling your entire inventory, while costing 150-180 pyromanite.
The defending crew suffers NO consequences from dying as well, other than 30 seconds, which usually doesnt matter much unless he is needed on Power console, which, the person killing the C-4 is usually someone unimportant like a Miner late-game.
This is only considering there is ONE person cleaning up C-4, if there is two, it will be utter denial of C-4.
Well, sure, youve got one person distracted. But unless it is a 6v1, there is no purpose of this; as your team is spending resources and one crew member, while the enemy team is spending one crew member. Utterly pointless.
Well, congragulations. You got yourself one c-4 planted for the price of five. But was it really worth it?
If you got the slim chance of getting a C-4 off, you really havent done much. Sure- it has delayed the enemy team- whether you planted it on Weapons, Power, or Navigations, it can easily be undone.
Repair stations easily dispatch the debris and fire created. This practically only stalls a prepared enemy for 4-6 seconds.
The main reason many consider Infiltrators to be extremely powerful is that they do not know how to deal with them. Infiltrating is really just based on who has more knowledge of the game, and that should never be the case. This makes it extremely powerful versus players who do not have much experience in Marine combat, but purposeless versus players who know how the game works.
To solve this problem, we need to find ways to make infiltrations less viable against new players and much easier to do against experienced.
How do we do this?
Buff C-4 defensability (is that a word?)
Nerf ARC12 Rifle.
Buff the Infiltrator's survivability, while making it more viable and easy for the team to communicate and work together to kill the Infiltrator.

[slapshot]

Maybe make disarming C4 require an ability/item to disarm it, and that it takes 2-3 seconds while vulnerable - i.e. if you get shot, it gets cancelled (perhaps blows up on you) - speaking of blowing up, I would suggest making it such that C4 does not destroy other C4, but rather detonates it - and also make it such that it does not clear debris

Infiltrator is already quite survivable - maybe not while standing still and guarding C4, but really it's quite effective at distracting a team in general

[Squid]

Maybe make disarming C4 require an ability/item to disarm it, and that it takes 2-3 seconds while vulnerable - i.e. if you get shot, it gets cancelled

Huh... I don't know why i didn't think of that.
Now that I think about it, that pretty much solves all the problems I've brought up, except for the ARC12 playstyle countering, but

But condemning a weapon for being good against a play style that it was designed to be good against feels... a little regressive.

Speaking of which, combat might need some minor tweaks.
Change Turret range to that of the C14 Gauss
Reduce ARC12 range to just above that of the C14 Gauss (maybe 0.5-1 unit higher or so)